Dressing the Italian way

[The Judge]

Ooh, good ideas there (well, except for HB's efforts...). Thanks again, everyone. I shall definitely go with the Italian names and just have to introduce them in a way which isn't too overwhelming. Luckily she has to talk/think about her outer gowns before she starts undressing so I should be able to manage it.

Thanks for that link, pyan -- I hadn't come across that one before. I hadn't realised how popular dressing up in recreated renaissance clothing was until I started researching!

 

[Peter Graham]

I've had a down on kirtle ever since English A level when I rubbished an Elizabethan poem for using a weak rhyme "A cap of flowers and a kirtle//Imbroider'd all with leaves of myrtle." I afterwards found out it was written by one W. Shakespeare...

It's still rubbish, whoever wrote it!

It puts me in mind of one of Wordsworth's more unforgivable stanzas:-

"And on your left, three yards beyond,
You see a little muddy pond.
I've measured it from side to side.
It's three feet long and two feet wide."

Back to the OP. The key is communication. If word choice significantly impacts on clear communication, change the word choice. With that in mind, I think you can get away with your Florentine gown - there's no obvious English equivalent and it gives a nice flavour. Otherwise, stick with the closest English equivalent. You woudn't be referring to any passing dogs by their Italian name.

But lose "kirtle" - it might be the right word, but the association with Oop North (possibly as a result of the Kirtle Water?) will jar badly. The English equivalents need to be fairly neutral and definitely not perceived to be region-specific.

Regards,

Peter

 

[Pyan]

It's still rubbish, whoever wrote it!

It puts me in mind of one of Wordsworth's more unforgivable stanzas:-

"And on your left, three yards beyond,
You see a little muddy pond.
I've measured it from side to side.
It's three feet long and two feet wide."

Or there's always John Keats:

"My ear is open like a greedy shark,
To catch the tunings of a voice divine."

I hadn't realised how popular dressing up in recreated renaissance clothing was until I started researching!

Goddess, yes! Try a trip to Glastonbury in summer (the place not the festival). Last time I was there there was some sort of medieval fair on, and it was like stepping out of the TARDIS.. (except for the smell, which I suspect was much less um...obtrusive.) Couldn't move for liripipes and mummers...

 

[Toby Frost]

Hmm. I did join this thread expecting to be able to contribute something, but I'm not sure I can now.

The Unpublishable Novel of Genius I have written is set in a city-state in a sort of supercharged Renaissance, but to be honest I never went into much detail about clothing - oddly, given all the cross-dressing and disguise that went with the assassination. I suspect I may have missed it out in order to get away from the beauty of Italy stereotype, so I could concentrate on the inventing and backstabbing stereotypes instead. I think the suggestions put forward so far sound good, though.

Incidentally, is there a word for what men wore on their legs back in the day? Tights and hose sound wrong, trousers and britches sound silly and wrong, and leggings makes me think of those staggeringly unattractive things from the 80s (the fashion that will not die).

 

[Pyan]

Chausses and braies seem to be the Italian version of hose and breeches, Toby - pics here.

 

[Susan Boulton]

Basically, my WiP is set in an Italianesque city in the equivalent of around 1485. My main character is a woman and at some point I have to write about her clothes since she has to take them off. (Calm down, Mouse. It's not that type of book. )

Just a question, Judge, is necessary to the plot to name/describe her clothes or is it a matter of, she undresses and goes to bed? If the former, then, yes, try and balance the correct terms with what you think will not bore, or make the reader skim through the section or turn the page. If the latter, keep it simple.

I know that often we writers want to fill in all the picture for our readers, but sometimes it slows down the plot and comes off as an info dump (says Sue, who spent a page telling her reader about the hero getting ready for bed to have her agent say, I want to know he took his clothes off and went to bed, not step by step stage directions )

Oh for anyone wondering about costume;

Medieval Costume and Fashion by Herbert Norris.

Medieval Costume in England and France the 13th,14th and 15th Century. By Mary G Houston.

European Costumes of the 16th through 18th century. By Edmound Lechevallier-Chevignard.

 

[The Judge]

Well, I think Wordsworth is definitely leading in the bad poetry stakes. Thanks, Peter. I think.

Eek! You've written an Italian city-state, too, Toby? You mean I've lost my USP??! On the other hand, I can ride the band-wagon of your success... However, the word "Unpublishable" is a bit concerning. (And my Italian men are wearing hose, not that I'm enlarging on their sartorial elegance.)

Thanks for the warning/reminder, Sue. She's undressing for a reason, I'm happy to say -- and not just to keep the likes of Glen interested -- so I'm pretty sure the paragraph is justified and not just padding. Doubtless I'll find out at some point, though.

 

[hopewrites]

It sounds to me like the seen in question will have enough room for discriptions to go with the terms. I like it when writers assume I have good reading retention (A because I do, and B because even if I didnt I could flip back and find out), so even if you only let us know once how the ensemble goes together with the names attached to the discriptions, once is all you will need for that kind of clarification, the rest of the time you could just use what ever name you gave each piece. The True Name (which might be more magical) or a name you make up.

 

[Pyan]

Eek! You've written an Italian city-state, too, Toby? You mean I've lost my USP??!

Um - I hope and assume that you're not entirely serious there, TJ - I can think of at least three Italian-state-based fantasy novels without even googling the term.

 

[The Ace]

Hmm. I did join this thread expecting to be able to contribute something, but I'm not sure I can now.

The Unpublishable Novel of Genius I have written is set in a city-state in a sort of supercharged Renaissance, but to be honest I never went into much detail about clothing - oddly, given all the cross-dressing and disguise that went with the assassination. I suspect I may have missed it out in order to get away from the beauty of Italy stereotype, so I could concentrate on the inventing and backstabbing stereotypes instead. I think the suggestions put forward so far sound good, though.

Incidentally, is there a word for what men wore on their legs back in the day? Tights and hose sound wrong, trousers and britches sound silly and wrong, and leggings makes me think of those staggeringly unattractive things from the 80s (the fashion that will not die).

Well, we have two words for our knee-breeches, bracchi (there's a theory that this just means trousers in general, not a big part of a Roman's wardrobe) or femalia (because they cover the femur) as Italian is derived from Latin, maybe these would help.

 

[Malloriel]

The late 1400's Florence is actually an area of interest for me. I participate in medieval/renaissance re-creation events, and my persona is right within the realm you're talking here.

The gamurra was also known as "gamurrino, camora, zimarra, camurra, zottana, gonella or zupa", so you can always take your pick there, but camicia, sharing Latin roots with the French "chemise", I always thought was more on the "similar enough to figure out without too much trouble" side. However, you could also go with "camisia, chemise, smock and undergown".

Depending on the season, you could use a "cotta", which was a lighter, thinner version of the gamurra.

The giornea really does have no real equivalent in my experience, as it was just that temporary fad within a span of maybe fifteen years. Slashing to show the camicia or undershirt (for men) stuck around a lot longer. Predominantly it was a tabard-style overdress, which could be open on the sides and the front, or a combination of either. It could have closures at the front opening, or merely hang loose, and was often cinched with a "cinture" or girdle, in this case generally a "belt" of fine fabric, decorated with gold, pearls, beading, or even gold chain, so not the kind of girdle we think of today. From the cinture would be hung items of convenience, like fans, perfume holders (because not everyone liked to bathe), small bags, or decorative tassels.

Neat side note: They had pockets. Well. Sort of pockets. Well . . . more like a purse accessible through a slit in the gamurra. The saccoccia (like sack, or satchel, yes?). Some were sewn to a gamurra, others were attached at the stays, or belt. Those more of the working class would often wear it outside the gamurra, rather than beneath.

So . . . now that I've gotten completely off topic, I'll say that I find myself defaulting to "chemise", "underdress", and "overdress" when talking to people who aren't familiar with the Italian terms, but if I was writing an Italian-esque setting, I'd prefer to use the actual Italian words. Even if you come up with -different- words, you're still dealing with teaching people through context what it is you're talking about. It's like dropping words from any language, real or invented. It can be done. I've seen people do it, even.

 

[The Judge]

Very helpful, Malloriel. Thank you.