Different point of view

[NenadBulaja]

I've read AGoT for the first time back in 2001. It captured me instantly for numerous reasons which I will not elaborate.

Maybe best thing that happened is that it filled my mind with countless possibilities. First thing on my mind was L+R=J theory, than Jon=Second head of dragon, Stark kids grow up to avenge parents, reclaim Winterfell yada, yada, yada...

After 10 years and four books, GRRM seems much clearer to me. Only thing that was on my mind is Martin finally closing the Story.

However, after discovering this forum, old juices started flowing again, and there are some things I would like to discuss with rest of the members in this forum:

1) Never have GRRM sad that Dany's resistance to fire have anything to do with her Targ blood, everyone just presumed that it is so. But here is something to think about: what if Dany is protected from fire by outside force? Sounds logical? Let me hear some theories, cos I got some of my own.

2) The Others are probably only thing in the novels that everyone takes for granted. They are force of "evil", nonspeaking, alien, killing machines deserving only dragonglass in the belly. Is it so? Would GRRM go against his principle not to write in "absolutes". Is there some chance that The Others may take an U turn and surprise us all?

3) Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa and Bran are considered as "the untouchables". But GRRM speaks of bittersweet ending for the series, which I interpret as a sign that not all of this characters can survive till the end. Or can they? Is there any way to make bittersweet ending and keep them all alive?

 

[Ursa major]

1) Never have GRRM sad that Dany's resistance to fire have anything to do with her Targ blood, everyone just presumed that it is so. But here is something to think about: what if Dany is protected from fire by outside force? Sounds logical? Let me hear some theories, cos I got some of my own.

The most likely explanation** (given the unfortunate fates that befell other Targs who thought they were immune to dragon fire) is that Dany's immunity was endowed by the same magic that allowed the dragons to be born from those stone eggs.

2) The Others are probably only thing in the novels that everyone takes for granted. They are force of "evil", nonspeaking, alien, killing machines deserving only dragonglass in the belly. Is it so? Would GRRM go against his principle not to write in "absolutes". Is there some chance that The Others may take an U turn and surprise us all?

There is a chance, but even though I've mentioned it more than once, I'm not sure it's at all likely. However, I doubt that even the Others are completely evil as this doesn't fit in with GRRM's general outlook which deals in shades of grey.

3) Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Arya, Sansa and Bran are considered as "the untouchables". But GRRM speaks of bittersweet ending for the series, which I interpret as a sign that not all of this characters can survive till the end. Or can they? Is there any way to make bittersweet ending and keep them all alive?

I can't see them all surviving. (But then again, GRRM may shock us by sparing them all.)


** - Until someone comes up with a likelier one.

 

[NenadBulaja]

How about this considering Dany: Theory that she is Azor Ahai is true, and R'hllor protects his champion from harm?

 

[Timba]

How about this considering Dany: Theory that she is Azor Ahai is true, and R'hllor protects his champion from harm?

Perhaps the real protection is provided by the dragons in some fashion and it is her connection to them that kept her safe. We have no real confirmation the eggs were stone and then somehow metamorphosed into living eggs, perhaps that is what dragon eggs are always like and when the babies inside finally sensed an outside presence they could make a connection with they reached out and began to weave a bond they used to then get their eggs into enough heat to hatch and to protect Dany. I offer no proof, just conjecture.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Conjecture is all that it takes, whole point of this thread is to try different approach to already discussed topics.

While it is possible that eggs actually newer were petrified, but in some sort of hibernation, I don't think that they know who will be their rider before they are born. And if they consider Dany their "mother", they wouldn't try to protect her from the fire, since she is supposed to be dragon.

Spoiler ADwD:
And in ADwD Drogon breathes in anger directly in Dany's face and burns her hair, which would be kinda pointless if he gave her protection against fire.

 

[Timba]

Conjecture is all that it takes, whole point of this thread is to try different approach to already discussed topics.

While it is possible that eggs actually newer were petrified, but in some sort of hibernation, I don't think that they know who will be their rider before they are born. And if they consider Dany their "mother", they wouldn't try to protect her from the fire, since she is supposed to be dragon.

Spoiler ADwD:
And in ADwD Drogon breathes in anger directly in Dany's face and burns her hair, which would be kinda pointless if he gave her protection against fire.

You make a good point but perhaps they have genetic memory and even as in the shell dragons they know about riders and all the implications. Heck, maybe they are much smarter than we have been giving them credit for and have plans of their own.

 

[Needle]

Speaking to your 3rd point on the "untouchables" of the book, I am holding out hope for Bran that he is strong enough that once he learns what he is doing he will not need physical contact with the weirwoods in order to use them, but this only my hope and probably wishful thinking! I strongly suspect that Bran will be spending the rest of his life attached to that tree his throne is built into. This to me would indeed be a "bittersweet" end for Bran, the sweet young boy who wanted to be a knight.

This connects to a thought I have brought up before, that if the wierwoods, Old Gods, are connected to the Others it gives them a whole different possibility. It is said that they see time very differently, that the acorn sees the tree who dreams the stump who remembers the acorn and the tree (can't find exact quote but that is the jist of it) if this is true (and i believe it is) and the trees are connected the Others, they may not be "evil" simply a "misunderstanding" on the part of the trees who would not understand the difference in a human corpse and the stump of the tree, which is dead but still remembers.

 

[Ursa major]

...which would explain why the rest of us keep getting stumped with regard to what's going on.

And now you've said this, Needle, it seems almost obvious. (Only it wasn't at all so until I read your post. You've definitely got a knack with this sort of thing.)

 

[Mesanna]

Speaking to your 3rd point on the "untouchables" of the book, I am holding out hope for Bran that he is strong enough that once he learns what he is doing he will not need physical contact with the weirwoods in order to use them, but this only my hope and probably wishful thinking! I strongly suspect that Bran will be spending the rest of his life attached to that tree his throne is built into. This to me would indeed be a "bittersweet" end for Bran, the sweet young boy who wanted to be a knight.

This is the future that I see for Bran too. Yeah, I suppose it is bittersweet, and yet I think Bran may yet have an important part to play, as he may be able to see things from the past that will help defeat the enemies of the future. At least this way, he can feel that he's making a contribution.

This connects to a thought I have brought up before, that if the wierwoods, Old Gods, are connected to the Others it gives them a whole different possibility. It is said that they see time very differently, that the acorn sees the tree who dreams the stump who remembers the acorn and the tree (can't find exact quote but that is the jist of it) if this is true (and i believe it is) and the trees are connected the Others, they may not be "evil" simply a "misunderstanding" on the part of the trees who would not understand the difference in a human corpse and the stump of the tree, which is dead but still remembers.

This is possible, but the thing that counts against it for me is the fact that the Children of the Forest worshipped the Old Gods. I'm not sure how I can tie together the Children worshipping a deity that was connected to their enemy, The Others.

 

[NenadBulaja]

You make a good point but perhaps they have genetic memory and even as in the shell dragons they know about riders and all the implications. Heck, maybe they are much smarter than we have been giving them credit for and have plans of their own.

Well now... It all start to make sense. THE DRAGONS ARE ACTUALLY MASTERMIND BEHIND IT ALL. Run, run for your lives!!!

 

[Needle]

...which would explain why the rest of us keep getting stumped with regard to what's going on.

And now you've said this, Needle, it seems almost obvious. (Only it wasn't at all so until I read your post. You've definitely got a knack with this sort of thing.)

Thanks Ursa! I have thought about this before and I just feel there is a direct connection between the old Gods and the Others. I my be way off track but the core of it feels true.

This is the future that I see for Bran too. Yeah, I suppose it is bittersweet, and yet I think Bran may yet have an important part to play, as he may be able to see things from the past that will help defeat the enemies of the future. At least this way, he can feel that he's making a contribution.

This is possible, but the thing that counts against it for me is the fact that the Children of the Forest worshipped the Old Gods. I'm not sure how I can tie together the Children worshipping a deity that was connected to their enemy, The Others.

Yes i definitely think Bran has a big part to play but sadly I think it will be from that throne. He will see the past, and maybe since he has a natural ability to warg and a family connect with some very important players hopefully he will learn how to communicate what he knows to them.

As I said above the core of the Old Gods/Others connection feels true. We know that the Chidren worship the Old Gods and are themselves a long lived race, yet they were almost wiped out by the Andals, maybe something there is the reason the two races are enemies? Or maybe they, like us, don't even know there is a connection? Anyway just one of many crackpot thoughts right now, but I'm betting there is some truth here as well! Hopefully you all can help me find it!

 

[NenadBulaja]

Speaking to your 3rd point on the "untouchables" of the book, I am holding out hope for Bran that he is strong enough that once he learns what he is doing he will not need physical contact with the weirwoods in order to use them, but this only my hope and probably wishful thinking! I strongly suspect that Bran will be spending the rest of his life attached to that tree his throne is built into. This to me would indeed be a "bittersweet" end for Bran, the sweet young boy who wanted to be a knight.

This connects to a thought I have brought up before, that if the wierwoods, Old Gods, are connected to the Others it gives them a whole different possibility. It is said that they see time very differently, that the acorn sees the tree who dreams the stump who remembers the acorn and the tree (can't find exact quote but that is the jist of it) if this is true (and i believe it is) and the trees are connected the Others, they may not be "evil" simply a "misunderstanding" on the part of the trees who would not understand the difference in a human corpse and the stump of the tree, which is dead but still remembers.

Bran is to the letter character written in GRRM's style. So there is no happy end in the sense that he will walk again, or be knight. But there is compensation in the way that he will play very important role in his life. And he may very well learn to embrace his destiny (and even like it).

"In the times before humans walked the face of Westeros, in the time when even children of the forest were young, wierwoods covered entire face of the land. Greatest of the grooves were in the warm North, with giant wierwood standing proudly in the middle if it all. Old gods were strong in his trunk, and every living thing in his groove was under his watchful face. And then came Dragons of Valyria, from their fiery roosts in the slopes of fourteen volcanoes, driven by R'hllor, their flight leader and greatest of their kind, in his quest to make entire world recognize his kind as rulers of all lover lifeforms. With them came the Fire. They burned all in their path, breathing fire from above, where wierwoods and Children could not reach them. They descended on the North, old wierwood tried to stop them, but was helpless. His groove burned before his eyes, all animals, trees and even himself screamed as fires engulfed them. Dragons left, leaving charred forests in their wake. Where once proud wierwood raised great branches to the skies, only burned stump remained. And then, the stump started to emanate cold, like unstoppable fingers of faith
Ice stated to envelop once warm North..."

My gift to Needles, whose posts I read with great joy. Everything is possible, we can only try to comprehense the way in which GRRM is knitting his story.

 

[Needle]

Thank you NenadBulaja! That's beautiful! Where is this from?

 

[Timba]

Thank you NenadBulaja! That's beautiful! Where is this from?

I am guessing he wrote it himself and I agree, its beautiful.

 

[NenadBulaja]

Thank you NenadBulaja! That's beautiful! Where is this from?

Well thank you. Since you are a reader of ASoIaF, you know good fantasy. And praise from such makes me proud of myself, since I am author.

 

[Needle]

Well thank you. Since you are a reader of ASoIaF, you know good fantasy. And praise from such makes me proud of myself, since I am author.

Your welcome! I say again it is beautiful, more so since I know you wrote it!

I like to think anyway I know good fantasy, I have stacks of books that sounded good but now sit half read. I don't waste my time on junk when there is so much good out there!

 

[NenadBulaja]

Your welcome! I say again it is beautiful, more so since I know you wrote it!

I like to think anyway I know good fantasy, I have stacks of books that sounded good but now sit half read. I don't waste my time on junk when there is so much good out there!

Check my article about similar authors, maybe you find someone interesting.

 

[Needle]

Check my article about similar authors, maybe you find someone interesting.

Thanks Nenad, i checked your article. i am already a Tolkien fan (although i have not done a reread of LotR in years) Jordan too, although I have to say I kinda wish he had handed WoT to Sanderson sooner! Don't get me wrong, not wishing him dead sooner just reining in the story!

About Dany's fireproofness, I agree with Ursa and Timba that it is not because she is Targ but because of her connection with the dragons. Although it is very possible that being a Targ allows the connection to the dragons in the first place! I am going to place my fingers in my ears and say lalalalalalala while anyone suggests that Rhallor is the reason, I just don't like or trust that one!

 

[NenadBulaja]

Well beside those worth checking is Stephen Donaldson, some works of Ursula Le Guin, and definitively Terry Pratchett. Unfortunately didn't manage to find English version of work from Maria Semenova, but her Volkodav series are in the rang of Jordan's work.

Same case here, personally consider The Great Other and R'hllor two sides of the same coin. And don't trust neither of them. But it's hard to reason Dany's fire resistance with the dragons. Like I already posted, plus nobody ever shown any resemblance to it, although there are two more heads of dragons, and there are more Targ's out there.

 

[Mesanna]

About Dany and the birth of her dragons ...

We know that magic has increased since they were born. This is confirmed in several places in the text. But, do you think that magic was increasing anyway, and this is what allowed the dragons to be born? In other words, did the dragons increase the magic in the world, or did the already increasing magic allow the birth of dragons? (It's a chicken and egg kind of scenario.) It seems like you would need some sort of magic to allow these creatures to be born in the first place, and if so, why now, thousands of years after they were last seen in the world?

Just something I've wondered about occasionally.