The E. T. A. Hoffmann Thread

It's not the length; it's the dense richness of the text. This isn't a tale I think can be read quickly, but must be savored and contemplated even while reading.... Still, I think I can probably have a chance to read it Sunday, barring unforeseen complications....
 
It's not the length; it's the dense richness of the text. This isn't a tale I think can be read quickly, but must be savored and contemplated even while reading.... Still, I think I can probably have a chance to read it Sunday, barring unforeseen complications....


I'm sure you're right. I've read "The Sandman" but not for years. I expect it will be a slow.... delectable..... read.
 
I'll give it a go (I know the text is lurking somewhere, I had it not too long ago) but my reading is sorely lacking these days, so my stamina might fail on me, even for something short.
 
I've posted a link to "The Sandman" at #15 above. I hope to offer some comments on the story on Dec. 7 and that others will have their own ideas about the story to share.
 
Trying not to ruin my eyes more than I already have ;) Computer text makes my eyes jump around like crazy (one of those reader types who just picks up enough salient words to know what's going on).

Pretty sure I know which drawer the text is hiding in.
 
Reading the story in a book is, I'm sure, preferable for most people (I'm reading it in an Oxford World's Classics paperback, The Golden Pot Etc), but I thought some Chronsfolk who might like to participate in discussion might not have "The Sandman" in a book in time to jump in on Wednesday.

It's reeeally weird.
 
Oh, quite, was only saying why I was still digging around for my text based copy.

...which is actually in a collection of various texts that we had to read in first year uni.



And ooooh yes. It's weird.
 
Dammit, I'm uncertain whether to join in or not: we only read the Sandman in the psychoanalysis part of my creative writing, since Freud used it so much, as Hoopy pointed out. That Freud can suck the life out of any enjoyable text...:eek:
 
I do hope JD Worthington will participate in the discussion! He'd bring wide reading to the conversation but is not Freud-ridden.
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I think I managed to escape Freud within a few weeks...found other critical theories much more appealing!
 
Did not get a chance to read it on Sunday, I'm afraid... the change in weather here, along with darned near everyone I come into contact with having been down with a rhinovirus, pretty much insured I'd end up with something unpleasant... and yep, it's here. So I spent most of yesterday attempting to sleep; work today, and got to be up early tomorrow, so no luck there... but I will attempt a reread tomorrow after work.

And yes, even at the distance of a few years, I can agree... a verrry strange tale. Good... but verrry strange....

Incidentally... while I find much of interest in Freud's analysis of that particular tale, I am not in general a fan of Freudian literary criticism. Too darned dogmatic and (to my mind) simplistic. If I'm going for a psychoanalytical reading, I much prefer Jung (and Jungian analysis), who manages to be very suggestive without reducing things too much....
 
Incidentally... while I find much of interest in Freud's analysis of that particular tale, I am not in general a fan of Freudian literary criticism. Too darned dogmatic and (to my mind) simplistic. If I'm going for a psychoanalytical reading, I much prefer Jung (and Jungian analysis), who manages to be very suggestive without reducing things too much....
Cool. I studied Jung a bit when I was younger as he is of the same nationality as moi and must say I always preferred him over Freud not that I am any sort of expert in that particular field.

Sorry to hear of your illness and whilst not wishing to be too indelicate please do not forget to respond when you can to my recent post as a healthy dose of antipodean horror awaits you....:)

For different reasons to JD I too have been unable to read The Sandman yet but will do so this weekend and try to post some observations.
 
Comments on E. T. A. Hoffmann’s “The Sandman” (as translated by Ritchie Robertson for The Golden Pot and Other Tales from Oxford UP) Dec. 2011


Some of the story was funnier than I’d remembered from having read an earlier translation. I’m thinking specifically of the material about Nathanael’s infatuation with the automaton “Olimpia.”



Nathanael is a gull and surely we are welcome to laugh at him. Just as Shakespeare’s Malvolio is gullible because of his vanity, falling for phony love letters from the object of his amorous desires, so is Nathanael. Olimpia doesn’t enthrall him simply because of her beauty, but because she is so “appreciative” an audience for his endless flow of words. Many other people alluded to in the story have not found Olimpia so alluring, e.g. at tea parties. Evidently they are not so vain as he.


Clara has put up with Nathanael’s conceit and verbiage because she loves him, but she doesn’t pretend to be more absorbed by them than she is.



Dr. Spalanzani may have observed (male) undergraduates before and noticed the way an “intellectual” young man may become infatuated with a presentable young woman who is willing to let him talk and talk (ahem -- qui legit intellegat!). He amused himself by taking the matter to its limit, gratifying his own vanity as regards his cleverness and enjoying some spiteful amusement.


I would place next to this story Lester del Rey’s celebrated “Helen O’Loy.” It’s a while since I read it, but I recall disliking its evident sentiment: the man who ends up in a happy erotic relationship with a robot. Among other objections, it seems easy to discern a misogynistic agenda in the story (and yet I doubt del Rey did intend that; I think he may have given something about himself away without realizing it). Suppose we change the sexes of the characters in that story and have a woman having a happy erotic relationship with a “male” robot. I think many readers would have suspected misandry. But Hoffmann as narrator doesn’t affirm robot-human eros! I suppose Philip K. Dick’s Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep? falls somewhere between the extremes of these two stories…


So far I haven’t said anything about the Coppelius/Coppola material.



I thought Hoffmann was onto a good technique in linking the story of the adult Nathanael’s horrifying experience with childhood memories. If I were going to write an eerie story, I might well do the same, provide a prologue involving childhood, because doing so could help get past possible reader skepticism about an adult’s experiences. After all, most readers will be able to remember being quite frightened as youngsters. I had thought that Algernon Blackwood wrote a story like this, that began with something about a child remembering faces peeking out from somewhere, and that it was called "How Fear Departed from the Long Gallery." But that's the title of an E. F. Benson story and it doesn't begin the way the story I'm thinking of begins...



At the moment, I’m not quite sure what to make of Coppelius, his role(s) in the story, etc.
 
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Still haven't had a chance to reread "The Sandman"; though, being home ill today, I'll probably tackle it later this afternoon.

On "Helen O'Loy"... Actually, I think del Rey probably was aware of that element, and intended it to be there, to make readers uncomfortable. Joanna Russ did something of a turnaround with this with a story which ended up as one of the central sections of her novel The Female Man, and showed just how degrading such fantasies can be not only to the object of such "affections", but to the person holding such views. In both cases, I would say the stories were comments on this tendency, and in neither are the characters explicitly censured morally... but the careful writing doesn't let the reader ever feel comfortable with such ideas (even though ostensibly presented as attractive), nonetheless....
 
All right, I have now reread the story and, though I'm not sure I've "processed" it all, a few thoughts occur to me. The theme of doubles seems to be quite strong here: Coppelius/Coppola; Clara/Olimpia; automata/"The Corpse Bride" (as in both Phlegon's "Philinnion and Machates" and Irving's "Adventure of the German Student"); the waking world/the dream world... mirrors and eyes abound in one form or another, evoking the entire realm of visions and dreams connected with "the Sandman", and Hoffmann very skilfully blurs the distinction between the real and the unreal here, introducing the reader into the world (or better, the Weltanschauung) of his protagonist in such a way that one is never entirely sure which is which.

This was a popular theme at the time -- Scott played with it; Mary Shelley features it heavily in Frankenstein and "The Mortal Immortal"; it finds expression in a great deal of the literature of that day: mirror-images; reflections (including distorted ones); visions of reality and dream... and I think Freud was quite right in his assessment as far as this goes: that the uncanny is that which is familiar yet unfamiliar at the same time, leading to a feeling of both comfort and unease, a tension which doesn't allow the reader to really know how to react, yet through Hoffmann's skill prevents him (or her) from following the impulse to reject by playing also on the feeling of almost knowing, almost recognizing, yet never quite being able to... very much ihe manner of dreams.

Hence we also have the aspects of the grotesque and absurd, which Nathanael's rational friends recognize in his encounters with Olimpia, and Clara recognizes in his "memory" of Coppelius: is Coppelius Coppola? or not? Are they Dopplegangers, or the same? Are both real, or is one illusory? Hoffmann wisely refuses to answer these questions, and leaves the reader ever more disturbed by these unresolved issues.

A brilliant piece, I think; well deserving its high reputation... but a very troubling one, the more one thinks about it.

More thoughts, perhaps, later....
 
You've provided several seeds for further discussion of this story, JD. Incidentally, though -- did HPL ever comment on it?

I wouldn't think Lovecraft would have liked it much. The erotic element would probably not appeal to him, but even more, Hoffmann, as you say, seems to practice a sort of brinksmanship, leading readers to a threshold of resolution but not crossing it, leaving us unsure. By contrast, Lovecraft never does this. His narrators frequently assert that they are not absolutely sure what happened, but we readers always know what did happen; Lovecraft's stories are journeys to resolution, to certainty, and to the explicit. Their mysteriousness is temporary. At the end, we are left with horror and/or awe, but not ambiguity, not unanswered questions.

(I suppose this is why we have Lovecraftian rpgs but not Hoffmannian rpgs.)

In drawing this contrast, I'm not necessarily exalting one author or disparaging another. I am a (nearly) lifelong devotee of Tolkien, but certainly his work is generally not ambiguous. The Ring is terrifying, but we learn its essential nature quite early on in The Lord of the Rings...
 
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I hope there'll be more discussion of "The Sandman" here today and in the next few days. However, would Chronsfolk be interested in discussing another Hoffmann tale around the middle of next week? Perhaps "The Mines at/of Falun" would be a good one.

Here is a link to an online text of the story:

http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/3/1/8/2/31820/31820.txt

(It begins on page 182.)

This might also be of interest:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falun

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You've provided several seeds for further discussion of this story, JD. Incidentally, though -- did HPL ever comment on it?

I don't recall coming across specific mention of "The Sandman", though he did spend three days at the New York Public Library reading all Hoffmann's stories he could lay his hands on. Later on, he wrote to August Derleth: "I think you'll find the famous Hoffmann rather a disappointment -- as I did when I got hold of his work after an expectant longing for many years. It is grotesque rather than convincingly & seriously terrible -- being the prototype of some of Poe's attempts to combine levity with sombreness" (Essential Solitude: The Letters of H. P. Lovecraft and August Derleth, I.138-39). Which more or less is reflected in his statements about him in Supernatural Horror in Literature: "The celebrated short tales and novels of Ernst Theodor Wilhelm Hoffmann (1776-1822) are a byword for mellowness of background and maturity of form, though they incline to levity and extravagance, and lack the exalted moments of stark, breathless terror which a less sophisticated writer might have achieved. Generally they convey the grotesque rather than the terrible" (ASHiL, p. 38).

(Interestingly, in the original version of this essay, he immediately followed this with mention of Chamisso's Peter Schlemiehl, which is very much in the same vein, before moving on to Fouqué's Undine, which he -- like Poe -- admired greatly.)

As for the erotic putting HPL off... not by this point in his life. Earlier, yes; but in this same chapter in SHiL, he praises the work of Hanns Heinz Ewers, including Alraune, which was predicated on an explicitly sexual situation, and The Sorcerer's Apprentice, which also often hinged on distinctly sexual situations. He was also impressed with the work of the artist Anthony Angarola, whose work he probably came across with the illustrations for Ben Hecht's The Kingdom of Evil, which are also at times quite explicit in their sexuality. In fact, he wrote a lengthy letter at one point defending the mature use of sexual matters in art, drawing a distinction between that which is strictly for the purpose of titillation, and that which is used realisitically or for purposes of satire, etc.

I had also meant to mention another factor concerning eyes... the threat of Coppelius to take out the protagonist's eyes at the beginning, followed by his casting two hot coals on his chest; and the bloody eyes which end up the same way at the end, which also "burn" him... and a question to be pondered: why "bloody", given that they were from the doll....?

Incidentally, I don't know as I'd quite agree with your assessment. Though not in quite the same way, Lovecraft did strive for that effect of indefiniteness, especially in his later work. Hence, even with the relatively explicit (in many respects) At the Mountains of Madness, we have a very indefinite hinting of what it was that Danforth saw beyond the mists, which is actually the ultimate horror of that novel... the very thing the Old Ones themselves feared; while even in an as early a story as "Celephaïs", there is an ambiguousness to the ending, where the reader is left uncertain whether Kuranes' finally attaining this dream-city and reigning there forever is actual, or simply that seeming eternity of dream at the moment of death... which leads me to wonder if perhaps another influence on this tale, one not noted (to my knowledge, anyway) before, might have been Ambrose Bierce -- whose work he read shortly before he did that of Dunsany -- especially "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge"....

Essentially, I would argue that a fair amount of HPL's work hinges on that uncertainty within the reader's mind; that precarious balancing of reality and unreality, where each encroaches upon the other, and the distinctions between the two blur... which is, essentially, what we have here with Hoffmann's tale....
 
I'm a bit late - life got in the way.

is Coppelius Coppola? or not? Are they Dopplegangers, or the same? Are both real, or is one illusory? Hoffmann wisely refuses to answer these questions, and leaves the reader ever more disturbed by these unresolved issues.

A brilliant piece, I think; well deserving its high reputation... but a very troubling one, the more one thinks about it.

I'm not sure it's so wise - or perhaps it is, but then I'm not really his target audience. Ambiguity is all well and good to me but it should produce a multiplicity of meanings. I'm having a hard time extracting a first meaning from this.

The main elements seem to revolve around eyes, automata, and a bit of fire and whirling and circles. The eye-man, Coppelius, almost seems like the orchestrator of a conspiracy against Nathanael. He disrupts N's home life. He threatens N when the boy was discovered spying on them. This has C producing the "eye" comments that make it almost unavoidable that N would equate him with the Sandman. (And does anyone have any opinions on what the heck is going on when C seems to detach and rearrange N's hands and feet? Almost like N is an automaton of some kind himself, but just as easily some weird hallucination.) And Spalanzani and C are obviously working together on the automaton and S is lying to N about C's identity. It just so happens that N's lodgings burn down, resulting in his being put next to S's house and able to observe Olympia. Granted, the actual move is put on N's friends, but it certainly has the results C and S would want. But even then, N doesn't think much of her until C freaks out N with the "eyes" (glasses) and then sells the spyglass. This seems to be magical, as N is then immediately dumbstruck and infatuated when observing O through it. As he sees the automaton as a real woman via the spyglass, he seems to see the real woman, Klara, as an automaton before his last insane fit. And C is there to witness that. I believe he was the "strange little gray bush" approaching that made N pull out the spyglass again. So, basically, C does seem to be a malevolent external force bent on N's destruction, despite what Klara said in her letter and repeated as the story went on.

That said, N is definitely a kind of Narcissus before the pool of Olympia. Her pneumatic aspirations and rapt stare are all N needs to feel like he's a great guy, as he bounces his reflection back to himself from her. And he is disposed to flights of fancy and negative thoughts, feelings, behaviors. While K has some automaton-qualities herself, she may be right to the extent that C had no effect on her and she even survives N's madness to live happily ever after. I gather that Hoffman was a sort of anti-bourgeois complacency sort of guy, yet a complacent bourgeois element is the nearest thing to a clear (but overly obvious) theme: that the sensitive romantic artist is sort of damned to an unpleasant existence and can never have the nice life the properly adjusted rational sort can have.

Kind of sliding into the technical/structural from the thematic, the story was almost ruined for me when the switch from the epistolary style to the authorial intrusion occurred. I don't like the epistolary style that was so in vogue in early fiction but I can deal with it. But breaking from that to the overwrought author's voice really took me out of the story. (I also don't like being addressed as a "gentle reader".) That said, some of the authorial excuses for telling the story the way it was rang true and I find it interesting that "the author" describes his urge to tell Nathanael’s story in almost possession-like terms, much as N describes C's effect on N. For a time I wondered if the author was C sometimes coyly referring to himself in third-person, or if he was the "pleasant-looking man" K ended up with, but neither of those rings true, as the author (not necessarily Hoffman) seems more akin to N.

I also found myself nitpicking, which doesn't always happen when a story's really blowing me away. N says he hasn't written for awhile because he's been distraught... while writing while obviously still distraught. And K refers to Lothar as both her brother and N's which makes no sense until K & L's backstory is given. And, hazard of the epistolary style, N writes "if only I -- if only I could solve the mystery". Emotional stuttering in a letter rings false. (Along with the epistolary style, the "G___" convention bugs me.) And N describes himself as being upset with K because of her letter, yet says he can't wait to see her because he won't be upset with her by the time he does. Erm, so if you can say that, you're not really upset with her even now, right? And, at one point, N is described as having "all his depression vanish" on seeing K yet, in the next paragraph, is described as being in the grip of a deterministic pessimistic funk. This is all trivial, but bothers me. It could be purposeful to draw N as a bundle of contradictions but doesn't seem so. Oh, and Hoffman never explained how N got from the looney bin to his family home. One can assume his family came to get him or his friend Siegmund decided he'd be better off there, but one also has to wonder if Hoffman dropped the ball or if the whole thing is a mad delusion at that point.

Perhaps the most important problem for me is that I gather that K is supposed to be seen as a sympathetic character with flaws but I couldn't stand her. Her letter (and some later aspects) made her come off as presumptuous, arrogant, priggish. "It's your beloved father's fault he died and you shouldn't be traumatized." I'm not sure if she's supposed to be a contrast to O because she's got a lot in common with an automaton. She may be functionally correct, but seems selfish and self-involved in her own way. She delivers any correct advice with spectacularly bad form.

It's interesting that you see so much humor in the story, Extollager. The story opens with N expecting K & L to laugh at him and encourages them to do so. Without consciously seeming to echo this, K says she could almost laugh about it in her reply and, when the author breaks in, he says he could almost see something funny in one way of telling this "not at all comic" story. I personally didn't find much intentionally funny, but it's definitely threaded through the story somehow.

Probably the closest thing to funny is what I take to be the true theme: "Don't ever ask the nanny nothin'." She definitely waxed whacked-out when describing the Sandman.

Anyway - I'm kind of mixed on this story. No hate; no love. Before reading this, I read "Ritter Gluck" and I probably prefer it. While it's not as grotesquely striking and structurally complex, the flaws and nitpicks were largely absent and there was a fun fluidity to the story that makes a similar difficulty in finding any "ground" in the story more acceptable.
 
Forgot a couple of things:

I hope there'll be more discussion of "The Sandman" here today and in the next few days. However, would Chronsfolk be interested in discussing another Hoffmann tale around the middle of next week? Perhaps "The Mines at/of Falun" would be a good one.

I can't swear to it because I'm also trying to read a Leiber collection at the same time and life may continue to get in the way, but I'm theoretically on board.

I had also meant to mention another factor concerning eyes... the threat of Coppelius to take out the protagonist's eyes at the beginning, followed by his casting two hot coals on his chest; and the bloody eyes which end up the same way at the end, which also "burn" him... and a question to be pondered: why "bloody", given that they were from the doll....?

Well, that's another one of the oddities: we're given objective evidence (as objective as anything in the story can be) that N is walking around intact, but S tells N that C got O's eyes from N. This could be metaphorical in the sense that it is through N's eyes looking through C's "eye" of the spyglass, that the previously lifeless seeming O's eyes take on a glint of life. Akin to how she's cold but, if N smacks his warm lips on her long enough, she warms up. :) But then the narrative describes the eye-flinging in physical terms, as though N's been walking around without his eyes. His would be bloody. But, basically, you could just fall back on N seeing glass or wood eyes and hallucinating them as bloody.

And, re: Lovecraft's take - I still haven't read Lovecraft (beyond a forgotten story or two eons ago) so have no opinion on him beyond the fact that I have a book and intend to read it. But I have to agree with him in a way. I don't think it's a flaw in Hoffmann that he falls short of the type of shrieking bad craziness that, say, Poe can hit but the two I've read definitely don't hit it. I'm not sure what the "Berliner" stuff in "Ritter Gluck" is about, but it's almost like Hoffmann knows his audience will start laughing if he pushes too far or hard. Or just that he has no interest in doing so, regardless.
 

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