On recieving conflicting critiques

[Venusian Broon]

I recently submitted a short story to a writing competition and asked (=paid extra!) for a critique. I did this partly out of curiosity - just to see how someone on the coal face of publishing thinks.

The critique was good - she described the short as 'unusual and enjoyable', which is what I'm aiming for, amongst other positives. On the negative side there for four main points.

One is presentation related - so a little bit of a slip. Another is relatively minor, while the third could be a big rewrite but it is something that came to mind after I sent the story out (isn't hindsight completely useless!) and is a hard but fair response; the final negative is a little trickier to read. It regards the ending.

Now I've already had the story critiqued by a published writer (for a creative writing course - not for publication). He stated: "I like the way it all hangs on the very last line: neatly done and conceived." He also describes the story as "unexpected".


The editor stated however: "The ending is a bit predictable."


I'm struggling a little bit with these conflicting bits of advice. One in praise and one quite harsh about the ending. To change it in the way that she goes on to suggest would, I believe, radically alter the whole approach to the idea and story.


Now I suppose on 'weighting' these crtiques, the Editor must get precedence - the magazine has a monthly short story competition with a reasonable first prize, so I assume she's read a tremendous number of short stories, and she knows what the commercial standard really is.


Anyone else with experience of such conflictions?


On a practical front I will let these views simmer in my subconcious for a good week before going back to attempt a re-write. There may be a perfect solution somewhere out there...

 

[Mouse]

I fancy I've had something very similar happen. Someone said they liked one thing about something I'd done in a story, and someone else commented that it didn't work.

So I ignored the person who didn't like it! Not everybody likes the same things. Same goes for editors.

 

[HareBrain]

I would get others to read it (ideally others who read a lot of short stories) before making a decision.

 

[The Judge]

I don't see the two comments as necessarily contradictory. I don't know if the "unexpected" of the first critiquer refers to the ending as such, but even if it does, it simply means that he/she hasn't come across a similar story/ending, and/or doesn't think about the ending while reading, so didn't foresee it. The editor, however, has either seen plenty of the same type, or has one of those minds that puzzles things out in advance.

It's not a "this is good"/"this is awful" split, it's to do with their different experiences and expectations -- in the same way that I might look at a cryptic crossword puzzle and say how easy it is while another person might struggle to answer one clue.

So, my advice is to go with the professional with more knowledge of the field in which you wish to be published.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

What do you think about the feedback?

Even when feedback is from someone professional it can be partly personal opinion and a completely different professional will give the opposite view. Is the ending predictable?

I have no problem with negative justified comments - take them and act on them. Where I struggle is the ones that at least intially leave me scratching my head and wondering what planet they are on. Those comments tend to be style based.

I usually put them aside, and talk to someone about it, it doesn't matter who. After that I decide whether or not I like their ideas, suggestions or not. Kind of like you have done with the other three comments - they need action or could use some action so you'll do it.

With my novel there tends to be two areas of conflict with the feedback. One is about Angus being a wimp vs sensitive and goofy and the other is it being a modern world that isn't Earth. Both would require jettisoning the entire novel to change and I've also had very positive comments about both aspects. So I am leaving it. However a third area had been the opening of the novel and despite only one objection to it, I agreed with them -- it wasn't an essential change, but it improved it. With help from a discussion on here I changed my high-fantasy to just YA fantasy in the submissions to agents which I hope will help a bit with the fact my fantasy world is set in a timeframe with similarities to our own.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think they're good for you; give you the confidence to decide which you agree with, what you wanted to do with the story. Although it can be very frustrating at the time.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The editor, however, has either seen plenty of the same type, or has one of those minds that puzzles things out in advance.

It's not a "this is good"/"this is awful" split, it's to do with their different experiences and expectations -- in the same way that I might look at a cryptic crossword puzzle and say how easy it is while another person might struggle to answer one clue.

So, my advice is to go with the professional with more knowledge of the field in which you wish to be published.

I agree with The Judge. The editor may have seen something like your ending (or your set-up to the ending) hundreds of times, so I'd tend to go with what the editor says.

But it would also depend on the experience of the published writer. Just because someone has been published, it doesn't mean they know anything about what other writers are writing But if it's someone who has attended numerous workshops, belonged to a critique group for many years, etc. then I'd give some weight to what they say, and show it to more people -- people who read widely in the field, not just whoever happens to be handy -- and get their opinions before making a decision.

I used to help edit a small press magazine, and I can tell you that there were certain endings I could see coming from the very first sentence. Literally. Other readers would doubtless take longer to guess, and some might actually be surprised. If even one person agrees with the editor, you're telegraphing the ending.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I don't see the two comments as necessarily contradictory. I don't know if the "unexpected" of the first critiquer refers to the ending as such, but even if it does, it simply means that he/she hasn't come across a similar story/ending, and/or doesn't think about the ending while reading, so didn't foresee it. The editor, however, has either seen plenty of the same type, or has one of those minds that puzzles things out in advance.

Yes, the "unexpected" from the first critiquer, in all fairness, probably refers to the whole story - but as it's just approximately 2000 words and he highlighted the ending specifically before that, it must be part of it.

I suppose I'm struggling a little to get my head around the editor's comment, in that the internal story logic that dictates that the ending is valid is only told in the last small paragraph, of which the last sentence is of course part of.

However,

As I'm the writer and perhaps can not see the wood from the trees being so close to my words, perhaps my "subtle" foreshadowing and "diversionary" actions before that are just too obvious...

It's not a "this is good"/"this is awful" split, it's to do with their different experiences and expectations -- in the same way that I might look at a cryptic crossword puzzle and say how easy it is while another person might struggle to answer one clue.

...espcially if the reader is a 'cryptic' short story reader .

I think I kinda get what she would see as unexpected - but it's going to take a reasonable re-write and I'm out of ideas at the moment on how to do it exactly. I will let it stew in brain for a while.

So, my advice is to go with the professional with more knowledge of the field in which you wish to be published.

Unfortunately the editor's comments come from Writers' Forum, not really a long-term market that I want to focus on as it's generalist (and it's quite expensive!)

 

[Venusian Broon]

What do you think about the feedback?

I found it really quite helpful, and because I was tuning into one of the negatives myself before I got the critique it feels like I am in sort of the same area as she is - if you can understand that!

Even when feedback is from someone professional it can be partly personal opinion and a completely different professional will give the opposite view. Is the ending predictable?

Eek! I'd like to think it's not so predictable (and to be fair it's described as 'a bit predictable', not completely predictable by the editor).

I think the problem is that it is one of those stories that can only have one 'solution', so that when you read it - it suddenly becomes very obvious. A bit like those optical illusions that are random dots, but when you pick out the picture you are supposed to see, say a face, you can only ever see the face and never a random collection of dots again.

Thanks for the thoughts everyone - it's helped order my thinking on what to do.

...and I can tell you that there were certain endings I could see coming from the very first sentence.

Good comments Teresa. I have to refrain from mentioning really anything about the story here (which is making describing it difficult). However, I can't resist putting in the first sentence of the story, to test your predictive powers . Unfortunately it is one of sentences that really needs to be changed - but the general sentiment is what I wanted to open the story with and should remain:

Your advice to be wary when meeting Satanists was in my mind when waiting for the interview, and indeed they surprised me by providing an enormous platter of fancy cakes and upmarket biscuits.


If you can get it from that, I will bow down and worship your god-like powers every day

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I did say certain endings, not all endings.

When a story begins with a warning about X, it usually means that either the person being warned or the person giving the warning will turn out to secretly be X, but by combining Satanists with cakes and biscuits all in the same sentence (which is brilliant) I'm now expecting something much more original and that you will surprise me.

Of course there might be something later in the story that telegraphed the ending to the editor.

However, keep in mind that it might not require a major rewrite. It may only be a single sentence, perhaps only a few words, which, to the eagle eye of the editor, gave away the ending and made the story predictable. Look for those words and you may be able to get by with minimal revisions.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Teresa - As I said I couldn't resist. A mischievious little devil on my shoulder made me do it

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I can't resist a guess lol - The narrator was fed to the next candidate in the cakes and biscuits?

Umm ... anyway trying to understand their point may help the story improve or at least tell you it doesn't need changing and that whilst that particular editor got the ending others may not.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I can't resist a guess lol - The narrator was fed to the next candidate in the cakes and biscuits?

Umm ... anyway if you want it in that particular journal etc then I guess you need to change it per instruction/suggestion.

Good guess with the limited information, but it is a cannibal-free story

I submitted it one of those writing competitions that run every month and you have to pay an entrance fee - so even if I made the changes and submitted it again, there would be no guarantee that it would win or get published. I'll definitely rewrite it and perhaps look for another outlet for it when the next draft is done.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Something you may want to bear in mind is that any editor may make suggestions, but it's your call as to whether you use them or not. The general story format doesn't get boring, if the telling of it is good. So make a decision as a writer as to how you think your writing works best from writing principles. Don;t feel you have to try and become unpredictable for the sake of it. Hints and pointers to later events are a natural part of the story-telling process, as mentioned in another active thread in this section about "Checkov's gun".

 

[Interference]

i was once asked to re-write an ending on the eve of a play being recorded for broadcast. I grumbled, of course, but only at home, then cracked on and turned out a lovely little two-hander that didn't state the obvious, but through the characters allowed the obvious to seem like it was being stated.

I'm not sure this helps, except in that when we're forced to re-consider endings, we can sometimes come up with a refreshing alternative.

Otherwise, I agree with Brian that the final arbiter must be you.

 

[TheTomG]

There's nothing new under the sun, of course, and indeed an editor will have seen and read so much, that statement will be extra-true for them.

Doesn't mean all your readership will find it predictable, however. There will always be someone who sees right through your twist anyway; for every mystery whodunnit there is always some who go "I *knew* that all along! Right from the second scene when they said blah blah blah."

So long as your twist isn't "...and it was all only a dream!" I think you are probably ok; you'll have readers who don't see it coming, for whom this is the first time they've read such an ending / twist / big reveal, etc.

What is it they say - "You can surprise some of the people all of the time..."

 

[Hex]

I find the Strange Horizons list of stories they see too often both entertaining and depressing.

One of my stories fits no.10. Sigh.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Ha ha, I like this. I have a no. 33, though; I think.

 

[Lilmizflashythang]

Call me naive, but shouldn't the ending be predictable within your world? I mean if it isn't, does it seem like someone just pulled it out of thin air?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think it should be in line with your world, not something at odds with it, rather than predictable. plus, when does it become predictable; in the last couple of chapters, half way through, near the start? I'd be a bit bored if I read a book and knew what woudl happen right from the start, but could probably live with it nearer the end. I'm a pretty tolerant reader, though, so others might disagree.