Published authors and percentage income

You can always tell an author because they never give up.

I think that's so true and it makes me wonder. Does the most accomplished author have doubts about his/her work. A bad review and their confidence is destroyed. A good review then they're hoping it continues...

Are authors insecure?:)
 
Hi Peter,

I think you're mixing up two different concepts here.

I'm saying a writer is a writer when he writes, and I'll add a stipulation here that I probably should have added before, - with the view to producing a publishable work. So that he is serious about his or her work. I think you're asking when is a writer a good writer? Quality is not really important to the definition of the word in my opinion, dedication to the art is. (Hopefully quality will follow.) So if for example Tolkein had never been published, if every agent and editor had said this is utter drivel and won't sell, I would still class him as a writer. Not because of the quality of his work, which was excellent, but because he took his writing seriously. If you read LOTR you can see the effort he put in to it.

As for your body of professionals, - agents, editors and publishers, they don't pass judgement on effort, and too often not even on quality. For the most part they are concerned about saleability. If we are to think of an approved body to accredit writers, I think the people I'd want passing judgement on whether I could be a member and be awarded the title of 'writer', would be other writers. There is sadly no such body.

Cheers, Greg.
 
Hi Greg,

Thanks for this.

I think you're mixing up two different concepts here.
I certainly understand where you are coming from (and you make a very good point), but I disagree. Before we can decide if I am a good writer or a bad writer, we first have to decide if I am a writer at all. My argument is that if we answer that first question simply by saying "a writer is someone that writes", we render the term meaningless and also arguably use it in a way in which it is not widely understood. Using terms incorrectly is hardly a good start point for a writer in any event.

Let's say I claim to be a sculptor. Now, it's a pound to a penny that this puts a certain image into your head of what I do. If it then transpires that all I do is make little men out of blu-tack whilst I'm on the phone to Mrs Graham's mother, you might decide that I am being somewhat misleading in calling myself a sculptor. You might even go further and say that I am displaying a certain arrogance in my self-definition.

To be a writer, surely one must not only write, but also have the ability to write. This means an ability to spell and construct grammatically correct sentences. It also means having an undertstanding of imagery, plot and story. It might involve far more, but even if we leave it at these absolute basics, we are still ruling out a significant number of "writers".

Once a person has the basic toolkit (like a carpenter with her bag of drawknives and shaves or a stonemason with his bag of chisels), they can in all conscience call themselves a writer. We can then go on to decide whether their writing is good or bad.


As for your body of professionals, - agents, editors and publishers, they don't pass judgement on effort, and too often not even on quality.
I agree in part. But publishers, agents etc work in the literary world. They cannot afford to massage fragile egos. They want good writing and know how to spot it. They aren't judges per se, but acceptance of a mss for a traditional publishing deal is, to all intents and purposes, validation that a person is a good writer. I accept that saleability can skew this - bad writers who happen to be famous in some other field can get published whereas literary geniuses who haven't written something which suits the market get rejected - which is precisely why I argued that some self published writing really should be out there.

Regards,

Peter
 
At FantasyCon, a panel of 5 published authors were asked this question ie when you know/feel you were a writer.

One said when he walked into Waterstones and saw his book on the shelf.
One said when she received the first copy of her book from the Publisher.
One said when he signed the contract for a book deal. (but added it wasn't until the book actually came out that he knew it was true.)

And I can't recall what the others said, but I'm pretty certain the confirmation of their writing status was defined by the acceptance of others. Admittedly, this is an unbalanced argument (in this thread) as they all had been published, but I'm pretty sure they were being honest.

M'self: in the past I've had a series of articles published in a prestigious motorcycle magazine, some in DIY magazines, some in Horse and Rider, and won 2nd place in a short story writing competition, that published the story. I had 2 full-length film scripts optioned (but never made) but (sorry Scalzi) I guess it's just me: I'll consider myself a writer when my novel is published. If it IS the self-published route, then you can be certain I'll have exhausted the traditional route first. So, yes a self-published writer IS a writer, and it's up to them (just like any writer) to be as good as they possibly can be. Hopefully, after the torrent of bad writing has diminished, good writing will shine through. It certainly seems to be doing that for the self-published who are posting here, but you'd expect that, wouldn't you?
 
Okay -- I've had thirty plus articles published in peer-reviewed journals, and a few years ago Palgrave offered me a book contract (although I didn't follow it up). I spend a lot of my life writing but it's not fiction -- just part of my day job -- so I'm not a writer.

I've even had a few bits of fiction published.

I wouldn't describe myself as a writer (although I spend a lot of time writing fiction and trying to get better at it). Even when (when!) I become rich and famous and my books can be found on every bookshelf in the known universe, I don't think I'll describe myself as a writer.

Nonetheless, the growth of self-publishing, in my opinion, makes it difficult to draw the line between 'writers' and 'not-writers'.

I've said everything else about four times before on this thread, so I won't bore on :)
 
For me, I think it was when I started submitting stories to magazines and going to writers' conferences - because I was putting my work in front of pros, instead of just tapping away on my typewriter in the privacy of my own home. By that point I was good enough to get some positive feedback, so I felt it was just a case of persevering...

Of course it probably helped that I'd already had some non-fiction published, and that I'd worked in publishing and wasn't terribly in awe of the whole process :)
 
It was a long time ago, but I think it was after I signed the contract for my first book that I began to feel that I was a "writer."

The definition I use to determine whether I think somebody else is a writer is quite a different matter. I believe that anyone who has worked long and diligently at the craft of writing, constantly improving (because they are always striving to improve, published or not), is a writer — so long as they keep on writing.

So there are many people who are not published writers who I nevertheless consider writers. On the other hand, there are some people I could name who have been published, about whom I have my doubts.

Hex, I consider you a writer, as I also believe many other unpublished writers on these forums are genuine writers.

But I'll throw another word into the discussion: "author." The way that I use it, "author" refers to an individual's relationship with a particular book or books. I am the author of The Green Lion Trilogy, I am the author of Goblin Moon. That is not going to change. The books exist; I am the person who wrote them, therefore I am the author of those books. I need never write another book but I will still be an author.

During periods when I have suffered prolonged writer's block, and feared that I would never finish another book again, the thing I dreaded most was that I would stop being a writer and dwindle to a mere author instead.
 
I think Dean Wesley Smith makes that same distinction - an author is someone who has written (and published) a book, a writer is someone who (currently) writes. People in the latter category are often aspiring to be in the former and, as Teresa points out, sometimes vice versa!
 
It was a long time ago, but I think it was after I signed the contract for my first book that I began to feel that I was a "writer."

The definition I use to determine whether I think somebody else is a writer is quite a different matter. I believe that anyone who has worked long and diligently at the craft of writing, constantly improving (because they are always striving to improve, published or not), is a writer — so long as they keep on writing.

So there are many people who are not published writers who I nevertheless consider writers. On the other hand, there are some people I could name who have been published, about whom I have my doubts.

Hex, I consider you a writer, as I also believe many other unpublished writers on these forums are genuine writers.

But I'll throw another word into the discussion: "author." The way that I use it, "author" refers to an individual's relationship with a particular book or books. I am the author of The Green Lion Trilogy, I am the author of Goblin Moon. That is not going to change. The books exist; I am the person who wrote them, therefore I am the author of those books. I need never write another book but I will still be an author.

During periods when I have suffered prolonged writer's block, and feared that I would never finish another book again, the thing I dreaded most was that I would stop being a writer and dwindle to a mere author instead.

Why are you always right Teresa?

Great post, sums up everything while still showing total respect for aspiring writers:)
 
Hi Teresa, Anne,

I'll agree that author implies that you've written something and it's been made public. Writer doesn't require that step. As a word it says that you write not that you have written.

Peter, if you had written every day for a year or ten years on your masterwork, but never taken it to an agent or publisher or risked self publishing would you not be a writer? Whether it's good or bad, would you not feel that you had earned the right purely by dint of your efforts to call yourself a writer?

Your blue tack sculpture guy hasn't put in the hard yards, so I don't think he could legitimately call himself a sculptor. But here's where it gets strange.

He could be sitting at home doing nothing when an art expert wanders by his house, see's his blue tack works and immediately wants to sell them. Suddenly, even though he has done nothing to warrant the title of sculptor he can be instantly elevated to that status by chance. Seems unfair, but then so is life.

Now while I can't think of any writers who could fall into this category, it does happen to other artists, and here I'm thinking of graffitti artists. They goout, do their thing, make a mess, and then some of them for no reason that I (with my admittedly terrible understanding of all things art) can see. So why should some of these guys be able to call themselves artists simply because their work is commercial, and others who may work far harder and spend far longer painting, not beable to?

I think in the end it comes down to the diligence and effort and time that's put in that defines whether someone is a writer. Commercial success and talent define whether one is a successful writer or a good one, not whether they are or are not a writer.

Cheers, Greg.
 
Going back to the original question - does the % royalty figure not change even for traditionally published books in download format?

Just that I noticed GRRM's ADwD was £13 a download, but with no printing or distribution costs involved, they must be trying not to undermine hardback sales. But with a larger profit margin, nonetheless, I figure if not happening yet, then authors should start demanding a higher % of download revenues at least.
 
I'll agree that author implies that you've written something and it's been made public.
I also rather like Teresa's distinction.


Peter, if you had written every day for a year or ten years on your masterwork, but never taken it to an agent or publisher or risked self publishing would you not be a writer?
No. I would be an aspiring writer or, as I would be more likely to say, a hobby writer. For me personally, it's "hobby" rather than "aspiring", as even if I were published, I would never expect to make enough loot from writing to be able to give up my day job and finance my bloated lifestyle.


Whether it's good or bad, would you not feel that you had earned the right purely by dint of your efforts to call yourself a writer?
See above. I wouldn't feel that I could use the unqualified term "writer" to describe myself until those in the trade whose views I respected felt that I was one - interestingly, it seems I may not be alone in this after all.

Your blue tack sculpture guy hasn't put in the hard yards, so I don't think he could legitimately call himself a sculptor.
This is already a shift from the "a writer is someone who writes" argument. We are now requiring "hard yards".


He could be sitting at home doing nothing when an art expert wanders by his house, see's his blue tack works and immediately wants to sell them.
Equally, he could be abducted by aliens or discover Gwynn ap Nudd, king of the fairies, living in his compost bin.


Suddenly, even though he has done nothing to warrant the title of sculptor he can be instantly elevated to that status by chance.
Indeed. Definitions are rarely perfect and we can all think of situations when someone might get approbation when they don't really deserve it. But that doesn't invalidate the definition in its entirety. As a general rule, I still maintain that the approval of the industry is the yardstick by which to judge whether one is a writer or just a typist.

So why should some of these guys be able to call themselves artists simply because their work is commercial, and others who may work far harder and spend far longer painting, not beable to?
Because life is unfair, as you say. It's also not an entirely fair comparison, as some modern art has become so...erm...conceptual that it has vanished entirely up its own backside and become little more than a clever, self-referential in-joke for a handful of pointless tools living in places like Hoxton. Writing has not suffered the same fate, largely because there is still a general feeling that expressing oneself clearly in proper sentences is a Good Thing. And, unlike putting up a shelf in Tate Modern, writing coherent and entertaining sentences requires no small measure of ability.

I think in the end it comes down to the diligence and effort and time that's put in that defines whether someone is a writer.
In part. I think it also comes down to whether someone is actually able to master writing - grammar, spelling, imagery, plot et al. But I still think that ultimately, the title of "writer" is one that is effectively bestowed by the industry, not by oneself.

Very best regards,

Peter
 
I don't think it has anything to do with the industry, but it does have everything to do with readers. A writer is someone who communicates something in such a way it moves another person. Stories and ideas do not become real until they are read.

My adventures with writing began online. Personally I feel like a writer when a reader comments I've made them weep, laugh, spit out their drink, picked out a line they loved, nags me for the next installment of my story. This remains my favourite review of my work:
Ok the very first two lines made me spit out my drink...
The dialogue drew me in and the family conflict is very strong and real.
It sounds just like how one of my friends acted heh heh.
An Entertaining read!!!!!!!


I actually care very little about the industry. For me it is about entertaining readers, and not any great crafting etc
 
Going back to the original question - does the % royalty figure not change even for traditionally published books in download format?

Just that I noticed GRRM's ADwD was £13 a download, but with no printing or distribution costs involved, they must be trying not to undermine hardback sales. But with a larger profit margin, nonetheless, I figure if not happening yet, then authors should start demanding a higher % of download revenues at least.

I must admit, I have a 'policy' of not buying ebooks that are more expensive than their hardcopy counterparts on the basis that IMO they should cost less as the production costs per copy sold are so much lower.

Having browsed Joe Konrath's (self-publishing aficionado) blog http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/ , he suggests that in his experience only the 'blockbuster' authors can demand more for ebook downloads from traditional publishing houses. His blog contains some useful (if glaringly one-sided) info on self-publishing vs traditional publishing.
 
Going back to the original question - does the % royalty figure not change even for traditionally published books in download format?

Percentage royalties on ebooks are usually considerably higher, yes :)

I pay off a much bigger chunk of my advance if you buy the ebook direct from my publisher. Plus you get a DRM-free epub that will outlive any hardware you currently own, because it can be converted to other formats.

Just that I noticed GRRM's ADwD was £13 a download, but with no printing or distribution costs involved, they must be trying not to undermine hardback sales.

The high price of some ebooks has nothing to do with production costs and everything to do with charging a premium price for desirable content. It's not really about not undermining hardback sales, because people who want the hardback to complete the set aren't likely to buy an ebook instead. Indeed, they may buy both - one for their collection, one to read on their Kindle.

Hardbacks don't cost twice as much to print and distribute as paperbacks, but readers swallow the difference because of the premium product. In both cases, though, what you are actually paying for is the privilege of reading it now instead of in six months' time. Ebooks are making this pricing model far more blatant, thats all.
 
I'd have to dig up my old contracts, but I think the royalty on ebooks is a little higher. The ebooks of the books I wrote for HarperCollin sell such a small percentage of the royalties I make from the trade paperbacks, I don't pay much attention to them.

I'm selling many times the number of ebook editions with Goblin Moon, and more every month, which is gratifying. More than I thought I would sell when I first had the idea to self publish the book. Since it was a reprint, I didn't expect much. The demise of chain bookstores in the US may have something to do with the numbers for the Kindle edition. But I've had stellar reviews — from established writers and from readers on amazon — so undoubtedly that helps a lot.
 
Sounds good - have Angry Robot given you a rough figure to work with?

Exact figures - I have a contract, you know ;)

Let's just say it's more than twice the percentage on all other formats, and if you buy direct from Angry Robot, the retailers don't take half the cover price - so that makes a big, big difference!

(N.B. the higher percentage on ebooks is pretty standard - it's not something extra-specially fluffy that AR are doing.)
 

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