publish and be damned?

[Montero]

Those first five words are her problem in a nutshell.

1. You can have just the first three chapters done if you can't afford the full book. We are talking £ hundreds not £ thousands.

2. The blogs are free. Would seriously recommend her going to look at John Barnes's Book Doctor Blog and trying the various tests and tools - there might be some nasty surprises in store for her regarding her book. It is one of the major skills for a writer to be able to stand back and see their own work clearly. Sometimes just reading and re-reading it doesn't work. One of the items in the blog is how to examine dialogue, another is on action scenes and a third is on what each scene achieves. (Which is pretty complicated). He makes the point that there are a lot of books out there which aren't quite good enough due to technical writing errors (which is what Book Doctors fix) and once those are fixed, with essentially the same stories and characters, you then have a saleable book. Whether it will then actually sell is another matter that depends on taste, fashions in the market and what vision and editor has for their list but she will then be a lot closer.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

@I, Brian -- she is trying to get the money together.

1. You can have just the first three chapters done if you can't afford the full book. We are talking £ hundreds not £ thousands.

2. The blogs are free. Would seriously recommend her going to look at John Barnes's Book Doctor Blog and trying the various tests and tools - there might be some nasty surprises in store for her regarding her book. It is one of the major skills for a writer to be able to stand back and see their own work clearly. Sometimes just reading and re-reading it doesn't work. One of the items in the blog is how to examine dialogue, another is on action scenes and a third is on what each scene achieves. (Which is pretty complicated). He makes the point that there are a lot of books out there which aren't quite good enough due to technical writing errors (which is what Book Doctors fix) and once those are fixed, with essentially the same stories and characters, you then have a saleable book. Whether it will then actually sell is another matter that depends on taste, fashions in the market and what vision and editor has for their list but she will then be a lot closer.

I think I'll have a look at those myself.

Of course, it's hard to sell just the first three chapters of a book. Readers generally want the whole thing.

P.S. One of the few responses she has had is from a UK agent (she's in the States). The agent said he would happily represent her in the UK...just as soon as she became a success in the States.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Yes, just to clarify, I'm not suggesting that everyone is able to afford a full novel line edit.

However, there are plenty of options - editing of first few chapters shows simple mistakes you can correct yourself; joining a critiques group helps with feedback; proper research of the story themes; proper research on how to write professionally; etc

Much of what people need as a writer is free or relatively cheap - an editor may cost, but that is probably the last thing on the shopping list.

The trouble with self-published writers in general is that they don't even start with a shopping list of things to do to make their MS a good standard!

 

[Montero]

@I, Brian -- she is trying to get the money together.

Of course, it's hard to sell just the first three chapters of a book. Readers generally want the whole thing.

.

I was saying the first three chapters because

1. Its educational. If she has done absolutely everything she is able to do to make her book good, and then sends it off for comment and there are lots of things that the independent professional picks up on in the first three chapters, she then has a template/list of things to look for in the rest of the book, which up until then was the best book she could produce.

2. Its about the size of the sample you send to an editor or agent (Depending on chapter length. It is usually 10,000 to 15,000 words in the UK.)

3. If the start is cr*p then you have no hope of getting readers. The odd wobble later on may or may not be forgiven depending on how engaging the story is. (Not recommending wobbles but....)

 

[David Evil Overlord]

I think I need to clarify a couple of things.

She had one novel published by Lachesis Publishing (a small press in Nova Scotia) in 2008.

She has an e-book of collected short stories (all featuring the same main character) up at Amazon right now.

She also has a story in an anthology out now from Pulp Empire/Metahuman Press.

So she can write. Not saying she's perfect, or that an editor couldn't pick things up that she's missed. I remember the first critique I did for her, she specifically said she had continuity down pat, so don't worry about that -- and the first thing I found was a continuity error.

Right now, I think whatever small income she gets from her writing is all the income she gets.

P.S. I think she'd love it here, and I've told her about the Chrons. But she has dial-up internet running off a chugging generator...

 

[Montero]

Look in the Publishing forum on SFF.

For example Teresa Edgerton talking about self re-publishing her backlist as eBooks (they came out the traditional way and the older books are out of print).

Scarfy talking about promoting his entirely self-published eBooks.

It seems that eBooks are mostly bought by internet active people, who will learn of the book via Amazon author pages, author website, participation in online groups and maybe Twitter etc.

So if the technology available to her doesn't give the kind of internet access necessary for internet promotion (both direct marketing and indirect interaction), not at all sure how many sales she'd ever make.

Has she had any sales on her eBook of short stories?

 

[Montero]

Further thoughts

1. She needs to work out who is likely to buy her book(s) and where they hang out. (Assuming it is speculative fiction of some sort then parts of internet will be useful.)

2. Twitter - not tweeted myself, working up to it. Looks like it could be low bandwidth so might be an area for someone with a slow connection. Anyone have more knowledge on this?

3. Not familiar with the small press etc where she has already been published, but do they allow authors to link from their pages (and back to their pages) to say "if you liked this, here is some more" ?
You can load a web page up a dial up connection (that's how it used to be for everyone and I've done it) so could have a promotion webpage of her own. You can get basic hosting for free.

4. Would suggest working on promoting the short stories already released before putting out a bigger book self-published, so she can try marketing herself, see what affect that has on sales etc, etc.

 

[Gumboot]

Can't agree. If someone really wants something badly they'll find the money for it.

Cut costs, save money, sell stuff, whatever it takes.

Otherwise she's in the "couldn't be bothered, but will self-publish an awful book, to be placed among the masses of other awful books the writers could not be properly bothered with" category.

Serious hard truth, and why the self-publishing industry has miniscule respect. Because those are the people driving it.

Those who make every determined effort to produce a polished piece of work, deserve every respect, regardless as to whether they go through the traditional print route or the self-published route. Trouble is, these people are few, and the ones who do try are more likely to succeed.

IMO.

Very well stated, and I agree 100%. I'm in the process of getting quotes for complete editing on my book, and I'm looking at a big chunk of money, but I'm not even blinking at it because frankly it's the most important expenditure in the release budget for my book. There's ZERO point marketing a book if it's not up to scratch, and in my opinion no author is capable of final edit of their work. You need a new set of eyes, and you specifically need an analytical, calculating, unattached set of eyes. Not your mum, or your girlfriend, or a workmate, but someone who couldn't care less if your feelings are hurt by their brutal treatment of your manuscript.

I can't say I'm looking forward to it, but it has to be done.

 

[Lilmizflashythang]

Very well stated, and I agree 100%. I'm in the process of getting quotes for complete editing on my book, and I'm looking at a big chunk of money, but I'm not even blinking at it because frankly it's the most important expenditure in the release budget for my book. There's ZERO point marketing a book if it's not up to scratch, and in my opinion no author is capable of final edit of their work. You need a new set of eyes, and you specifically need an analytical, calculating, unattached set of eyes. Not your mum, or your girlfriend, or a workmate, but someone who couldn't care less if your feelings are hurt by their brutal treatment of your manuscript.

I can't say I'm looking forward to it, but it has to be done.

Ya know, here's where I'm lucky. You say don't go to your mom, but you never met my Momma. She doesn't sugar-coat things. If it's crap, she'll surely let you know. She's even told me when my artistic projects didn't work so well.

 

[spider from mars]

Totally don't want to diss the ebook option - it's lovely to be living in the future. However, as stated, for every Amanda Hocking there are thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, who make absolutely nothing. Some of these books probably deserve a much wider audience, but they get clumped together with a lot of rubbish.

If you get a traditional publisher:
A) By gum, this is bloody difficult
B) You might get advertising. Yes, as a debut you won't get plastered all over the tube, but at the least you'll be on the website etc.
C) Your book will be presented to the major trade clients. Depending on how they feel about it they may or may not make a fuss about you. But even handing an AI to Amazon/Waterstones/Smiths means that it gets in front of a buyer. Who may take a fancy to it. Generally if I trust the publisher I'll at least buy maybe 50 or so copies to give it a try. If they get to read it and enjoy, maybe they'll pop it into more places (crazy how much of the stuff around the smaller titles depends on the goodwill/whim of the buyers! But honestly, if I read and love a title it'll get a push with us). My lot specifically give time to the smaller pubs (been in a few meetings recently where we've agreed to send out advance copies and whatnot), but it helps us if something gets filtered through a reputable publisher.

It's a tough business, and I'd never advise anyone against the ebook route, but there are soft benefits to going through a traditional publisher. Yes, they'll take part of your profit, but with the average amount that typical self-published books/ebooks make I would still give it a good shot, because your book will get put in front of the right people.

 

[iansales]

I had a 20,000-word novella that I didn't think magazine or small press editors would take in the format I had written - it has, and relies on, an extensive glossary. So if I wanted the story to see print, I was going to have to do it myself. I could have just formatted it for the Kindle and bunged it up on Amazon, but then it would just be lost in the zillions of self-published sf novels there.

So I decided to get it printed up properly - in a paperback edition, and a limited signed hardback edition. And I'd form my own small press to do it - and even make it open submission. But with very tight guidelines, and a plan to only publish 1 or 2 books a year.

And that's what I did. I called it Whippleshield Books, and the novella is titled Adrift on the Sea of Rains, and should be available to buy at Eastercon.

None of which, I should add, means I've no desire to be published by a major imprint. That's still my ambition.

 

[James Coote]

I intend to self-publish a bunch of short stories for free on my website and in e-book form as a way of promoting myself, either to a publisher, or a wider audience for a full length novel

Short stories also act as practice and a way to get feedback on writing

 

[James Coote]

Further thoughts

2. Twitter - not tweeted myself, working up to it. Looks like it could be low bandwidth so might be an area for someone with a slow connection. Anyone have more knowledge on this?

I found social media marketing really wasn't all it was cracked up to be. They (my mysterious 'sources' / what I read somewhere on the internet) reckon you need an average of 20 tweets a day to stay at or near the top of most influential people's twitter feeds (those who are likely to retweet you to thousands of people), plus you have to do all the work (and it is work) finding the right hashtags to use, digging up useful links and info people will actually value and coming up with an endless stream of witticisms

Also you have to be consistent. That's why I gave up on it Every day without fail you need to be at it, otherwise you just find you're talking to an empty room

Same with blogs

Of course it might be easier if all your friends are on twitter rather than facebook as mine are

Maybe other people have had greater success with twitter than I?

Edit: Oh and you don't really need a fast connection to tweet per-se. However, if you want to be linking all sorts of 'cool viral video's' and the like, you'll probably find actually you do need a decent connection

 

[iansales]

Nothing comes easy. You have to build contacts. And then when you have something to say, there are people who will listen to you.

 

[HMart]

There's ZERO point marketing a book if it's not up to scratch, and in my opinion no author is capable of final edit of their work. You need a new set of eyes, and you specifically need an analytical, calculating, unattached set of eyes. Not your mum, or your girlfriend, or a workmate, but someone who couldn't care less if your feelings are hurt by their brutal treatment of your manuscript.

Agreed. Though, let your "mum" and everyone else read it first, regardless if they all give you the glass half full approach. There may be a few nuggets of correction you could ascertain, in between the gush

I'm self pub'n a book right now that I paid for the comprehensive copyedit service on. The editor had a similar take that everyone else had. He had a number of minor critiques/corrections and what not, but the structure and story were solid. It was well worth the experience and I will most likely utilize the service again.