Positive critiques thread?

[Hex]

I only meant a thread for an exercise -- not a forum or anything that would run for any length of time. We're all familiar, I think, with the people who contribute to critiques and not everyone should be able to get their egos massaged.

I am sad that something which could be useful to some people seems anathema to others, but I accept that feelings are very strong, and I withdraw the suggestion.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

There is constructive criticism, which can and should include positives and negatives about the writing.

Then there is destructive criticism.

I suspect Hex was trying to reinforce the constructive nature of the Chrons with this suggestion.

 

[mosaix]

No, it wasn't from Chrons, TJ. This was a personal critique done for me privately.

I think you have very right to object to what was said - as always when someone is rude.

The critters writers workshop has been mentioned here on Chrons before. Personally, I have found it an excellent place both to submit work and to learn the art of critiquing. One of the things that I like about it most is that, like the Chrons, it is well modded and the rules on behaviour are laid out clearly for everyone to see.

The other thing is that you have to put something in to get something out. This is important for two reasons.

First, it gets around the problem that Dozmonic mentioned before, if your going to have to put some effort in on other people's work (quite a bit sometimes) before you submit yourself then you don't waste the opportunities that you do have when your turn comes around.

Second, by critiquing others it gives you an insight into critiquing when you are on the receiving end - and that it isn't personal.

Anyway, here's the link:

http://www.critters.org/

 

[Warren_Paul]

There is constructive criticism, which can and should include positives and negatives about the writing.

Then there is destructive criticism.

I suspect Hex was trying to reinforce the constructive nature of the Chrons with this suggestion.

Yep, that's right. But I think what everyone is saying is that "destructive criticism" shouldn't be happening here.

 

[Ursa major]

I think it's a natural reaction to adverse criticism, however kindly given and meant, to take it personally. Decades ago, when I was a programmer, we were explicitly told that when out code was reviewed, we the coders weren't being criticised. And even after being told, we still felt that when others found fault with our code, our abilities as coders, indeed we personally, were being criticised.

Now compared to fiction, code is a rather impersonal output. We had automated Chrispys - compilers - to sort out the syntax (= grammar errors). And we could - to some extent** - test our code using impersonal software. And yet....

Given the above, it's easy to see why our egos can get bruised when our stories are critiqued. And it should be easy to see that it's just about inevitable. There's no way round it: only the thickest of skins could protect us, and they'd probably prevent us learning from the experience.



** - There are far too many paths through software of any complexity for more than a small fraction of them to be tested.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

I think a mix of the two is good. I belong to a site which has a comment side and a review side. Learning to take criticism can be difficult, I've got a pretty thick skin these days and take most things with a laugh, but part of that is because I can now evaluate the review. It doesn't take me long to work out which reviewers are going to hate nearly everything I write -- even if it was good. When I first started out I wanted to please everyone, but now I know that won't happen. Writing gay characters and posting that online has attracted some awful comments lol (my goal these days is to have my book be subject to a banning and a burning in some Southern states )

The reviews are fantastic and I always appreciate them even the ones I don't agree with can help, because I then know for me that bit is right. But sometimes it is good to have some place to say I don't have time for an in depth review but this is really good, I enjoyed it, and it made me laugh/cry/shiver etc There are a couple of online writers I don't want to pull apart because I don't want to lose the magic I get when I read their work.

My favourite ever online comment that still makes me smile begins: 'Ok the very first two lines made me spit out my drink... '

Both Hex and Springs have written gripping stories, that are a great read. Sure there are elements that need improving, but crit after crit that don't include an emotional response to the work can be disheartening. That can be as important in evaluating a piece of work as anything else. Even the ones spitting hatred. The emotional response can also be a way of helping a writer feel good about their work,

if you do criticise one para and not the rest they can assume that the uncriticised para was OK and they have done something right.

This isn't true for some, especially with teen and middle aged women writers on the web. I've picked up a lot of new writing friends online and there have been a fair number who having received an entirely critical review, have lost their confidence and stopped writing entirely. The best thing is the balanced this is good, and I loved this, but this could do with work.

 

[mosaix]

And even after being told, we still felt that when others found fault with our code, our abilities as coders, indeed we personally, were being criticised.

How well I remember!

 

[David Evil Overlord]

Yep, that's right. But I think what everyone is saying is that "destructive criticism" shouldn't be happening here.

I haven't seen destructive criticism here. I have seen it elsewhere.

Egos don't have to be massaged. But they don't have to be devoured by piranha, either.

 

[Warren_Paul]

I haven't seen destructive criticism here. I have seen it elsewhere.

Egos don't have to be massaged. But they don't have to be devoured by piranha, either.

Yes, and I think we already had this conversation.

I agree. There is no point on tearing up a writers work without giving advise on how to improve it, that never, ever helps the writer. Be nice, that's the rule.

 

[The Judge]

I am sad that something which could be useful to some people seems anathema to others, but I accept that feelings are very strong, and I withdraw the suggestion.

I'm sorry if I've contributed to making you sad. If anyone wants positive feedback for their work then they simply have to ask for it in critiques. Yes, it will be buried among other stuff no doubt, but surely it will be all the more welcome for that.

And I can see the argument that it would be nice to give nothing but praise to people just starting out and even those further along the line. After all, if we see a 12 year old boy kicking a football around in the park it might be only right to praise him for his skills -- but I personally think it's entirely wrong to leave him with the impression that he can realistically expect to play for Real Madrid, which can be the case if he hears nothing but plaudits for what he is doing.

 

[Anne Lyle]

I don't know if you do it here (I'm generally too busy with my own writing these days to join online critiques), but on some forums, critique candidates put a short paragraph before the excerpt to say what level of critique they'd like.

In my case, I've been a member of various critique groups for nearly a decade, so I would generally ask for a no-holds-barred response (but still polite, of course!), but if someone were to say that it was their first ever critique, maybe responders would be extra-tactful (but without unnecessary ego-fluffing)?

With beginners, I tend to focus on the worst problems (e.g. poor spelling and grammar that make it hard to read), praise any good points and gloss over the rest - because you only get better by writing. And writing some more.

 

[Dozmonic]

It's valid to want positives from feedback as well as negatives, I just think it should be included with the general critique. I did one on 25k of a book a Chrons member had written and made sure to point out where I thought things hadn't worked and why, along with what I thought did work and why. I felt the author was lacking confidence in their writing at the time (for no good reason, they're fantastic) and made sure to draw parallels to how other authors presented their work.

If your work is being torn apart on a grammatical level, or awkward turns of phrase, then remember that most people don't get that right first, second or even third time. There are rules and interpretations of rules for such.

If you're not looking for a line edit, then 1-1.5k is generally too short to get a scene in context to be able to judge it and how well it works. Perservere, improve the grammar, redraft the work to a high standard and find someone who will critique a larger section and do it honestly.

 

[Coragem]

In an ideal world our current critiques section should include more positive feedback.

Positive feedback is it least as important as critical feedback, and not just because it bolsters confidence. It also tells us what we should do more of, and what strengths we can and should build on.

Lately there's been a lot of research in psychology suggesting that the best way to excel "in life" is to focus on strengths, and on accentuating/extending those strengths, instead of worrying about or dwelling on weaknesses too much.

Personally, I think the "praise sandwich" is a good rule: start with praise, move onto constructive and respectful and sensitive criticism, and end with praise. There is always something positive in the writing posted up here at Chrons, so this doesn't have to be dishonest -- in fact reflecting positives as well as criticism just more comprehensive, or in that sense more honest.

If we can't aspire to praising more in the current critiques section I would definitely endorse Hex's suggestion. After all, for some of us who struggle there are times when writing can be heart-breaking.

"Tread softly because you tread on my dreams."

Coragem

P.S., I sent Hex a private message a while back to thank her for being a positive present here. Thanks again.

 

[Toby Frost]

While I agree with the general viewpoint being expressed, I would make a couple of related general points. Firstly, very little of the stuff posted here is so bad that it ought to be thrown away and forgotten about. That's not a very high standard to pass, I agree: in practice it means that writers here have mastered basic English and aren't writing something downright illiterate or offensive. However, very few of the excerpts posted here don't need a bit of work. (I was going to say "are of publishable standard" but that's a pretty much meaningless phrase). Most people are posting excerpts in order to learn rather than to be congratulated, so really only people who refuse to take any note of critique or just claim it was meant to be like that anyway are missing the point.

Secondly, it may be worth mentioning that "It's not my sort of thing, and so it's bad" is not valid critique. I don't "get" urban fantasy, for instance (largely, I suspect, because I'm not the intended audience, but that's a debate for elsewhere), but I'm not going to say it's all rubbish as a result. Likewise, and more subtly, "I wish this story did X instead and so it's bad" isn't much use either. I remember reading out a novel I was working on to the writing group I am in. One reader kept saying "It would be cool if the heroine was like this". I learned to ignore that pretty quickly, because I didn't want her to be that sort of person. It's fine to point out ways in which a story might work better, but if it involves fundamental change, you might be better off writing it yourself.

Thirdly, while I appreciate that there are people here posting from all over the world, I don't see why a writer has to take any notice of a critique that isn't reasonably well-written in itself. A while ago I read some fairly strong critiques on a piece about a woman leaving a village. At least one of the points raised in critique made no literal sense. I think if you are going to expect to be taken seriously when pointing out room for improvement, you should at least check that what you've said is coherent. Motes and beams and all that.

While I have seen tougher criticism than is given here (largely face to face, which does make a difference), those giving the criticism need to be careful that they are being clear and not just expressing their personal tastes, and those receiving it need to be aware that it is just opinions (although grammar is either right or wrong. It's whether you can get away with it that matters). I think most people instinctively think "Was it any good?" first, and then, in more detail, pick over the things they didn't like, usually the details, which can make the critique seem like a nit-picking exercise.

 

[Hex]

Okay, I'm going to kick this deceased horse once more and then I promise I'll let it decompose in peace.

People learn in all sorts of different ways. We learn by being told that what we do is wrong, and also we learn by being told when we're doing something right.

Negative comments -- in my experience of learning situations that have nothing to do with fiction writing -- tend to have a slowing effect. If someone is criticised or makes a mistake and realises it, they lose confidence, they take longer to make the next decision and -- perhaps bizarrely -- they are more likely to make another mistake. In fact, if the event was especially difficult, they are quite likely to make the same mistake again.

I'm not just talking about stuff that I have done or observed. This has been demonstrated in lab research (so it must be true...). Positive comments given in the context of negative ones are not necessarily more effective by contrast -- it is quite likely that they are less effective.

Despite this, the question of whether we learn more from positive or negative comments is not really relevant. There are lots of opportunities to receive negative criticism. Yes, current critiques could be encouraged to use the 'sandwich' approach (the approach that many higher education institutions encourage their teachers to use) but I wasn't revolutionary enough to suggest an alteration to the critiques board. It has always worked well for me and I am sufficiently selfish that I wouldn't want to mess with it.

Simply because some people have benefited most from negative criticism, it does not follow that this is the best approach for everyone, all the time. It is not even true that we're all aiming for eventual publication (although some of us are) and -- honestly -- anyone who believed they should submit something to an agent or publisher based on comments in a thread specifically designed to give only positive feedback would be an idiot, and I suspect involvement in the thread would make very little difference to that fundamental, underlying problem.

Yes, the real world of publishing is tough (reportedly -- I haven't dipped any of my toes in it yet), but it doesn't follow that the best way to prepare for it is to make everything else tough as well.

I don't think saying nice things to people about their work -- nice true things, because I completely agree that lying is not helpful -- encourages weakness, or sloth or self-indulgence.

I'll stop now. Let the decomposition commence.

*thud* People don't always critique at the level requested. I've done it myself. The default assumption on Critiques is that by posting there you are looking for comments on everything.

 

[Colbey Frost]

People can just say what type of critique they would like? It could be in the rule e.g. it has to be under 1500... you must state what level of critique you want?

And coming back from having your confidence can build character and make you stick to your guns even more?

If you're going to put up your work in a public forum, wouldnt you expect harsh treatment to a certain extent? If not then stick to people and family you can trust?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think the point is it would only be there for the people who want to avail of it, who are happy to feed into it. Like critiques. If someone doesn't fancy it, disagrees with it, then that's fine, their perogative. But there are others who would like it and would use it.

I'm generally up for a bit of trashing - not a bad thing, that, all things considered - and would probably still use crits for said trashing, but that's just me. What harm does it do to have something like this?

That's what surprised me a bit today, is that the responses were so strong. It was a simple question - would anyone be interested? Not do you agree or disagree with the principle, or even are we critiquing the right way. Just is there any interest.

For me, I say yes, I don't know if I'd put my stuff up on it, but would I have done, 6 months ago? I'd have to say yes, maybe. Especially after my first crit when I thought I just mightn't, ever, put another word out that I'd written again. (stop laughing, the lot of you. )

I would have been very, very glad of the chance to lick my wounds and find out there was something positive in it.

I'm lucky, I'm at the point where I've had some good feedback, and i have some people who I can go back to and say help! was it a disaster.... but at the start, before I had that, a bad critique went a long way to knocking confidence. and still does, the difference is I get back on the horse a little quicker now.

So, I say, go for it, Hex, if there's a way. If anyone wants it. I'm happy to feed in, put positive comments in.

The other thing I think is that if there is something we're struggling with this is a chance to say, I'm not very good at xyz, without picking out what's wrong, cos I know something is, can you show me how it could be better?

 

[Mouse]

Sorry to poke the horse a little bit, but I wasn't here so...

Maybe I'm a bit twisted but I tend not to believe the positive comments and only learn from the negative ones. Somebody tells me something I've done is rubbish, I want to do it better next time (after I've stomped and sulked for a bit).

Lately I fancy I've not been getting very many comments on my threads in critiques and I wonder if it's because people worry too much about offending other people and nobody wants to tell me how badly it sucks. That, or I'm too awesome.

Anywho, I just wanted to say that I've never seen a bad critique on this forum. Not to the people who listen.



And Hex, you know I think your writing is super fantastic and I'm very jealous of your wicked skillz.

 

[Ursa major]

Sometimes it's hard to find something nice to say; not because the work being critiqued is rubbish but because it isn't the kind of thing one likes to read.

For instance, I don't particularly like run-of-the-mill Fantasy, but will read and enjoy example of this genre where they're exceptionally good (e.g. LOTR, ASoIaF, First Law, R.E.Howard's Conan** stories). However, if the person wanting the critique is asking about a specific technical aspect to do with their Fantasy story - PoV use, tense use, grammar - I will try to help (though I'll admit to not being even a gifted amateur***). I won't lead in with some sugary words, because I'm simply not equipped to give them; more than that, I wouldn't want to sound insincere, if only to avoid undermining my later comments.

Now usually, I'm not quick on the draw with critiquing, so if someone's posted before me, they're free so say all sorts of nice things. But if I am the first response to the original post, don't expect a nice wrapper. (But I do try to be polite, and I don't like giving unfocused criticism.)



** - Yes, Conan. When my only experience of this character was seeing Arnie and friends, I too thought the stories would be rubbishy pulp. Luckily, I now know better.

*** - I'm the sort of person who seeks underlying principles; when I find them, I hold onto to them like a limpet bonds to a rock. Matters of style are beyond me, at least in a technical sense; here I rely only on: "I know what I like."

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Maybe we should simply regard this as a reminder that when we do critiques we should be specific about anything we do like. If we aren't shy about saying exactly what we don't like, I think we shouldn't be shy about being equally precise when it's the reverse. And people do need to know specifically what they are doing right, so that they don't throw the baby out with the bathwater when they rewrite.