Working out a planet's attributes

Doesn't anyone find it more interesting to believe that the assumptions regarding the physics of our known universe are simply assumptions? I tend to entertain the thought that all number of assumptions from current scientific theory stumble when we're able to see beyond our current limits.
 
So really, the eliptical is decided by an orbiting body's original velocity, tangent etc, when it first becomes captured by the gravity of the larger body?

Yes exactly right! That's why most of the solar system planets have a nearly circular orbit, as they were never actually 'captured' but formed from a disk. However they can also be caused by other interactions. Give something with a circular orbit a nudge (maybe a close pass by another body significantly more massive than itself) and that nudge will now (probably) put it into a slightly more eccentric (elliptical) orbit.
 
... Give something with a circular orbit a nudge (maybe a close pass by another body significantly more massive than itself) and that nudge will now (probably) put it into a slightly more eccentric (elliptical) orbit.

Yeah. That would do it too.

Doesn't anyone find it more interesting to believe that the assumptions regarding the physics of our known universe are simply assumptions? ...

Tested assumptions, that work in practice, until they no longer work in practice. What went up used to always come down. Now it doesn't anymore. In fact there is no longer any 'up' or 'down'?

Relativity contains Newton, and there will be some greater law that contains both relativity and Newton, that is out there waiting to be 'discovered'. It's like a ladder, rung by rung?

But up to now relativity's assumptions still seem to work in practice, every time?

They were looking a little wobbly for a while with the faster-than-light neutrinos ...
 
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Yeah. That would do it too.



Tested assumptions, that work in practice, until they no longer work in practice. What went up used to always come down. Now it doesn't anymore. In fact there is no longer any 'up' or 'down'?

Relativity contains and permeates Newton, and there will be some greater law that contains both relativity and Newton mechanics, that is out there waiting to be 'discovered'. It's like a ladder, rung by rung?

But up to now relativity's 'assumptions' still seem to work in practice, every time?

Sure. I suppose the beyond is more intriguing in my mind. I like to build fictional planets/universes that push the limits of what we would consider possible. Defining the 'why' or 'how' is even debatable, to me, as necessity to the particular story.
 
Sure. I suppose the beyond is more intriguing in my mind. I like to build fictional planets/universes that push the limits of what we would consider possible. Defining the 'why' or 'how' is even debatable, to me, as necessity to the particular story.

Yeah. You know I find it interesting that scientists still refer to it all as 'nature'. Everything man can perceive or know, from cosmic to quark level, is still referred to as 'nature'. The room of nature, bounded by walls of time. All that exists, for us exists in time.

But I believe the room of nature is just one of perhaps infinite rooms within the greater house of 'spirit' that contains and surrounds and permeates the room of nature, and which exists outside of time and space, and beyond our natural senses, and where 'spiritual beings' walk between worlds, etc?

'My Father's house has many mansions' ...
 
Yeah. You know I find it interesting that scientists still refer to it all as 'nature'. Everything man can perceive or know, from cosmic to quark level, is still referred to as 'nature'. The room of nature, bounded by walls of time. All that exists, for us exists in time.

But I believe the room of nature is just one of perhaps infinite rooms within the greater house of 'spirit' that contains and surrounds and permeates the room of nature, and which exists outside of time and space, and beyond our natural senses, and where 'spiritual beings' walk between worlds, etc?

'My Father's house has many mansions' ...

That was perfectly stated and was exactly where I was headed. There is this book about a man who turned water into wine. While seemingly impossible, sometimes questions require no answer. This same concept can be extrapolated into the building of planets/systems.
 
Thanks HM. I've been working on that explanation, it wasn't off the cuff :)

And do you know what I believe surrounds spirit, in the same way that spirit surrounds nature?

Love ...
 
Thanks HM. I've been working on that explanation, it wasn't off the cuff :)

And do you know what I believe surrounds spirit, in the same way that spirit surrounds nature?

Love ...

Ah yes, love. The single most powerful ingredient to any story. Done well, it hooks like no other. Done poorly, it loses the reader.

Fascinating

Sorry all if I derailed the thrust of thread. I'm off to pay the bills!
 
Ah yes, love. The single most powerful ingredient to any story. Done well, it hooks like no other. Done poorly, it loses the reader ...

But natural love is only the shadow of divine love, the glue that binds all visible and invisible (to us) living beings together as one and carries them inevitably, eternally towards the perfect, ever receding source, and which on the physical (sexual) level of the acting body (we have a thinking body, and also a feeling body too) is expressed in the natural desire to enter paradise (for a short while, anyway) by becoming one with the beloved ...
 
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Doesn't anyone find it more interesting to believe that the assumptions regarding the physics of our known universe are simply assumptions? I tend to entertain the thought that all number of assumptions from current scientific theory stumble when we're able to see beyond our current limits.

I missed that post HM. I would add though that as our knowledge improves and we refine our theories, the 'stumbles' are getting smaller each time. In other words it is not unreasonable to believe that our current theories are slowly bracketing in on the 'truth'. Consequently I would expect to find the changes in those theories (and therefore our understanding of the universe) to be smaller through each iteration.
 
All this I know. But if a lesser body orbits (falls) around the the gravity of a greater body how do you explain highly eliptical orbits? Is it the original escape velocity, constantly dragged back by gravity? There must be other forces than the gravity of the central body acting upon an eliptically orbiting body? Well, there are, it happens, it's a fact, but I don't get the expanation?

Nice, simple universe with just two bodies in it, right? They're actually both orbiting their common centre of mass, but we'll make one of them a star, and the other a comet so said centre is well within the larger body, so we can say the comet is orbiting the star and ignore all distractions.

The energy of the comet at any point in its orbit is the sum of its potential energy (mass times the total integral of the gravitational force from the 'height' at which it is) and its kinetic energy (mass times the square of the speed at which it is travelling - that's right, speed, not velocity, at this point. But the equation looks the same).
Mass cancels out, so it doesn't matter if we're doing the experiment with a frozen pea or a medium sized planet.

We'll put our object at 50 AU from the star, with a relatively minor lateral velocity; well below the escape velocity for that star at that distance. Then wait a few centuries.

The force on our body is relatively small at that distance, but continuous, and it starts to accelerate – vector of acceleration directly towards the star. The closer it gets, the faster it gets, and the faster it gets faster, as gravity drops off as the square of the distance. Now, if it were a real comet, by now it would be outgassing and complicating the equations, so we'll make the star a black dwarf, producing no heat and with no atmosphere, and no mountains over a mm in height. Furthermore, the approaching object is utterly unaffected by magnetic fields. No eddy braking or solar wind friction.

If our object hits the star, the experiment has a trivial solution, much like the green hand grenades. If, however, it misses, due to its original velocity, by more than a couple of millimetres, the force on it is directly towards the star, while its velocity (constantly changing) becomes lateral to the surface; it rushes past, being dragged around the gravitational centre and its trajectory becomes a continuous curve , until it is flung away, all of that lovely kinetic energy carrying it further and further, the gravitational force getting less and less but dragging speed of of it all the time, the energy sum always constant until it reaches the distance it started from, and its original speed, starts falling again and the whole cycle repeats. If you map the forces, velocities and distances onto a piece of graph paper, the result is a perfect ellipse, with the centre of gravity at one focus and the other one way out in the cold dark where there's nothing much going on. A short, close, very fast bit, and a long, slow, leisurely winter, but exactly the same geometrical shape.

Obviously, our universe has some complicating factors:- the tidal forces would tear it apart, it's orbit's perturbed by the planets kicking around, there's friction from solar wind and its own tail loses it mass. But it's still close enough that we can predict when any given comet will be back (several thousand years {that is, terrestrial years. Exactly one cometary year, evidently} in some cases).

Yes, at first sight it does look as if that second focus should contain something to pull the object back round, doesn't it? But actually, it's just run out of oomph, and, like a dropped superball at the top of its trajectory, falls back down.
 
It appears that the eliptical is caused by changing velocity in the orbiting body, like a rubber band stretching to its limit, then snapping back again.

The velocity of a comet, say, increases as it rushes towards the sun then, luckily for the comet, just misses hitting the sun, swings around it, and starts its outward journey again, trying to break free but slowing down as the forces of gravity and velocity compensate, until gravity wins, the rubber band reaches the limit of its stretch, and the comet is pulled accellerating back again towards the sun.

While Crispen already explained things in much more detail, I just wanted to point out one thing -

Gravity is not a rubber band!!!! A rubber band pulls the hardest when it is stretched to its maximum length. If two objects were connected by a rubber band you'd expect them to move fastest when they are furthest apart. Gravity pulls the hardest when it is working over a short distance, so it's the oppoiste.

An object in a highly elliptical (eccentric) orbit around a star spends the majority of its time far away from the star. As it moves inward, it accelerates faster as it gets closer and the force of gravity increases. At its closest approach to the star (perigee) it is both moving and accelerating the fastest. Gravity then slows it down over time, and it reaches its slowest speed at the point of furthest travel (apogee).

One could argue that for any object in a stable orbit, gravity has already "won". The object lacks the kinetic energy to break out of its orbit, so it will be forever gravitationally bound to its star, unless some other force (like Jupiter) ejects it from the system.
 
With an elliptical orbit, are two fingers involved? :rolleyes:


(Some analogies only go so far in helping to explain something; beyond that point, it's best to stop digging, to mix metaphors.)
 
Doesn't anyone find it more interesting to believe that the assumptions regarding the physics of our known universe are simply assumptions? I tend to entertain the thought that all number of assumptions from current scientific theory stumble when we're able to see beyond our current limits.


No, they're not assumptions, they're observable phenomena. True, we do work on the assumption that the laws of physics are universal, but thus far there's no evidence to counter this, and even if we were to encounter it, there would be some underlying explanation which would essentially mean the laws of physics would still be universal.
 
Yeah. You know I find it interesting that scientists still refer to it all as 'nature'. Everything man can perceive or know, from cosmic to quark level, is still referred to as 'nature'. The room of nature, bounded by walls of time. All that exists, for us exists in time.

Er... no.

Science is nothing more than the study of observable reality. Its limits consist solely of the limits of what we can observe, which is constantly expanding.


But I believe the room of nature is just one of perhaps infinite rooms within the greater house of 'spirit' that contains and surrounds and permeates the room of nature, and which exists outside of time and space, and beyond our natural senses, and where 'spiritual beings' walk between worlds, etc?

'My Father's house has many mansions' ...

If a "spiritual" reality exists, it exists in one of two ways:
1) It interacts with our physical reality, in which case it is part of our physical reality, and can be measured and observed, once we develop the technology to do so.
2) It doesn't interact with our physical reality, in which case for all intents and purposes it might as well not exist, and is irrelevant to us.
 

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