1000 Post Critique - Protagonist Introduction

[The Judge]

I wonder... If I hadn't mentioned anything about the era, what would the impression be then?

If you hadn't mentioned it I'd have thought these were modern day girls in a modern day setting, or perhaps slightly in the future, and as soon as you mentioned swords I'd have thrown the book down.

Way back when I did my first and second rewrite... I tried writing as they did in the time and got negative responses that it pulled the reader out of the scene

Without having seen it I can't say for sure, but perhaps that was either because the writing wasn't as authentic as you thought or you had old-worlde dialogue attached to these same modern-day attitudes which would jar terribly.

If I've got modern technology mixed with old, then why not modern dialogue and morals mixed with old?

When you devised the technology level, did you produce reasons why they have propellors but not hand guns? If so, did you do the same with society? Do they have reliable contraception, for instance? Are women allowed the vote? Are middle-class women allowed to have employment outside the home? Are they considered as equals to men, or are they -- as one Turkish man avowed to my sister once -- precious jewels who are to be protected, ie locked up in the house and never allowed out? All of these issues and the thousand others will impact on the way the women think, as of course will their social class.

NB pre the 20th century, I can't think of any age or society where a boy would ask a girl to a dance -- he might ask her for a dance when they were there, but the dances themselves would be open to everyone (or at least everyone of the right sort). As for a 14 year old girl wanting to wear her mother's clothes to a dance, either fashion hasn't changed at all in some years which would imply a stagnant society and one where clothing is valuable because cloth is time-consuming and expensive to produce (ie pre-industrialisation), or fashion's windmill has turned remarkably quickly -- and in the latter event, they would more than likely buy clothes not make them themselves.

If you have put together a social structure and a system of morality which you are sure fits your world, and you firmly believe that these girls would think and talk in this way, then fair enough.

And just because I'm objecting to perceived ananchronisms, it doesn't mean an agent will do the same. I have recently read a well-reviewed book set in the equivalent of medieval towns and villages which had in the narrative the word "quaffed" (used without any irony whatsoever) within a dozen pages of a female character using the word "cute" of a boy. How anyone could read that and not want to destroy the book and stop the author ever writing again is beyond me, but clearly I'm in a minority.

 

[ctg]

You know, fantasy isn't my game, but I'll give it a try. The reason I didn't reply at the first time was because I felt that I didn't knew enough about the story. So dropping in to do edits would just made me to look more idiotic than what I am. This chapter needs the other bits and I'm still feeling that it cannot be judged completely without that knowledge. So here's my shot in the darkness. Ignore it, if you will.

The breeze trickled through the canopy of lemon trees, casting its refreshing touch throughout the orchard. Emylynn smiled, and pulled the hair back from her head, determined to enjoy every second of this blessed coolness.
​

What a day.What a lovely day.And if only she didn’t have her shadow, then the day would be perfect.
​

As you can see I added a few words and removed some as I felt they were too wordy for the character. I think you are trying your best to make her feel happiness at the beginning. But what I couldn't understand is the last sentence with the reference to the shadow as the "shadow" can imply to so many things.

Emylynn was sure the gods gave the world younger sisters to torture their siblings, and so far Alyce had been doing a more than satisfactory job. And she thought: Oh Lord could you not take her away?
​

‘When do you think Ben’s going to ask me to the dance?’ Alyce asked her, for what must have been the hundredth time, which was ninety-nine times more than Emylynn felt like answering.
​

If you meant that the shadow in the last reference is her sister's shadow, then I think you could clarify it a bit. In here, especially in the second para, I feel you could had done the dialogue and narrative thought the other way around, and continue the narrative flow with the dialogue and response.

Also bless for Alyce for thinking men. To me that makes her three dimensional and not the brat Emylynn sees her being.

A flurry of possible answers raced through her head, each one worse than the next, and no less true than the first. She bit her tongue. Emylynn couldn’t be sure their father’s stable hand had even looked Alyce’s way, let alone wanted to ask her to the spring dance. But Alyce wasn't bothered about hearing an answer to first as she already popped the next question: ‘What should I wear?’
​

I like your stoic way of staying in her head and not forcing her to converse. And if you do the prose this way then the next para is even more funnier than what I was at the beginning.

Try feathers, or maybe a blue gown with an apron? How about pink tutu with oversized white ribbons? Emylynn knew better than to say any of that out loud; Alyce was famous for her tantrums. She’d been dealing with them for ten years now, ever since Alyce had turned four and learnt how to wrap their father around her little finger.

​

What I highlighted with poisonous green is something you should consider removing, as to me it takes more away than what it adds. Maybe some would say it's an infodump, but you know better, as the readers might or might not get that info from reading between the lines in case you decide to continue straight away with the dialogue line.

It's a suggestion and it'll certainly will speed up the pace.

‘Maybe I could wear Mother’s dress?’
​

Emylynn groaned. That thing. They’d had this conversation before. So many times. And she knew what was coming, and knew better than to answer.
​

She busied herself by plucking a lemon from the nearest tree and placing it in the basket that cheerfully motored along by her side, the casual swishing of its propellers keeping the contraption afloat.
​

Emylynn passed underneath a low hanging branch and proceeded to the next tree, but Alyce’s hand tugging on her sleeve brought Emylynn up short. She glanced down at it, then up at Alyce’s pleading face and she sighed. ‘I don’t think you’ll fit in it.’

Why don’t you ever listen to me? You’re too fat.
​

I think the last personal thought is too much. The implication is there, in her reply. And if you remove the mother reference, it'll become even more personal.

The reason why add the few word at the beginning is to bring the character POV much closer than what you had in there previously. And it just enhances her stoicism.

Alyce’s face darkened and she started to tremble as storm clouds brewed in her eyes. ‘Oh, and I suppose the dress will fit you, won’t it?’
​

The red highlight shows you the fat over the meat. It's over description and I feel that is should go as it doesn't really add much. The dialogue is more important.

Another lemon went in the basket. Emylynn avoided making eye contact with her sister; that would be fatal. She wouldn’t be able to hide the annoyed scowl on her face. ‘I’ll help you make a nice dress to wear.’
​

This para feels weak. I'm marked with poison green the bit I'm not so sure.

‘I don’t want to make one, I want Mother’s dress!’Emylynn sighed deeply. What there was that she could say?

And I’d like to be left alone. We don’t always get what we want.
​

'What are you huffin' and puffin'?'
​

I really didn't like the personalised thought was as strongly associated to the dialogue line as it could had been. Hence the narrative replacement. Also I thought the most annoying dialogue in the history of world line would drive her mental state better than the personalized thought.

Emylynn breathed deeply, to control her frustration, then tore another lemon from a branch and chucked it at the basket, which leaped forward to catch it when the lemon fell short of its rim.
​

The beginning of this para doesn't associate as well with the end of the last as it could especially as I understand that she's really annoyed. I'd like her ribbing the lemon off the branch rather than trying to calm her nerves as it'd show more of her stoic anger than the previous description.

‘Don’t you have jobs to do?’ Emylynn asked.
​

‘Matt’s doing them,’ Alyce answered, and followed along, evidently missing the hint, or deliberately ignoring it. Knowing Alyce it was likely the latter.
​

‘You need to stop encouraging him.’
​

‘Why?’
​

Emylynn sighed. ‘Because it’s cruel.’ Because you’re a spoiled brat that should learn to do something for herself!
​

I feel you should remove the dialogue line and just drop in the thought.

‘He doesn’t seem to mind.’
​

Emylynn turned, placed her hands on her hips and said, ‘One day he will grow a brain and realise he’s barking up the wrong tree.’
​

Alyce grinned. ‘As long as it’s not any time soon, cos I’ve still got the chickens to feed.’
​

‘You know Brandt doesn’t like you taking advantage of him like that.’
​

‘But Uncle Brandt isn’t here right now.’ Alyce waved her hand around victoriously. 'Is he?'
​

‘That’s not the point.’
​

‘Then what is?’
​

Emylynn groaned, and tugged on another lemon, it held on to its branch. She glared at it and pulled harder. The lemon came loose and the branch quickly flicked back up into the depths of the tree.
​

‘You ...’ Alyce laughed as the tree spattered loose leaves over Emylynn. 'You look like...'
​

Nice, nice dialogue. The edit at the end is to enhance the drama. If you would leave Emylynn's line in its original place, it would ruin your carefully build up tension between the characters.

Emylynn shook off the leaves and glared at her. ‘And you look like Mistress Mertellie’s crock-pot.’ Emylynn quickly hid her smile.
​

Alyce’s mouth fell open. ‘Did you just call me fat?’​

F***ing yeah I did. ‘I take it you don’t look in the mirror much?’
​

When you use thoughts associated dialogue lines, always do it short thought first and then drop in the controverting dialogue line. Remove my thought as the language isn't from this world.

Alyce’s face returned to a deep shade of red, and her hands balled into fists. She glared furiously at Emylynn. Suddenly she turned away, storming across the orchard, shoving aside a branch that got in her way. She stopped at the edge of the orchard, and turned back towards Emylynn.
​

‘I hate you!’ she said, turned away again, and was soon lost from sight.
​

Emylynn watched her go, thinking she should follow after, knowing she’d gone too far this time. Emylynn knew if she didn’t stop Alyce now, there’d be a series of doors slamming shut in the girl’s wake, a frown from their father, and then he’d be telling her to go calm Alyce down, again!

It would be so much easier if she just learnt how to grow up! She sighed, and ran after. The basket raced to keep up with her, its engine revving madly. It made a loud screeching sound and suddenly there were lemons on runaway courses in all directions.
​

Emylynn stopped, and looked back at it. The propeller had caught on the raised root of a tree and turned the basket upside down, before the mechanism had seized and it tumbled to the ground.
​

Her face gradually slid into a look of resignation. Sometimes I hate my life. A door slammed shut in the distance. Make that all the time.
​

Sorry.

 

[Warren_Paul]

You know, fantasy isn't my game, but I'll give it a try. The reason I didn't reply at the first time was because I felt that I didn't knew enough about the story. So dropping in to do edits would just made me to look more idiotic than what I am. This chapter needs the other bits and I'm still feeling that it cannot be judged completely without that knowledge. So here's my shot in the darkness. Ignore it, if you will.

Sorry.

Thanks, ctg.

Why sorry?


One thing I'll say, Emylynn would never use the f-bomb, ever, and neither would I in my writing, but you didn't know that. Otherwise, there is a lot of helpful stuff there.

I think your right with the bit where Alyce laughs at her and calls her my worlds version of a Christmas tree, I've been looking at that and thinking it's not quite formatted right.

And yeah, Alyce can be selfish, but there is much more to her than Emylynn gives her credit for. Sometimes Emylynn can be a bit prejudice.

If you hadn't mentioned it I'd have thought these were modern day girls in a modern day setting, or perhaps slightly in the future, and as soon as you mentioned swords I'd have thrown the book down.

When you devised the technology level, did you produce reasons why they have propellors but not hand guns?

Interesting, so a modern world can't ever still widely use swords, even ones that are powered by batteries to give a laser sword sort of effect? Not like lightsabers, but more gives them a kind of electrical/fire-based charge. They burn skin and carve through metal - although steel tempered to resist the blades has been invented, just not shared with the enemy. Yet with the start of the coming war, the technologies the land keeps to themselves will soon change.

I do have guns, what good would steampunk be without them.

But you do bring up some interesting points to consider. As far as voting goes, the country is divided into four different regions, each ruled over by the duke of a major house. Those regions are further divided into lands owned by Counts with one of the four dukes as their liege lord. The dukes are ruled over by a monarchy - which used to be one of the major houses until they overthrew the Wizard's Council over a thousand years ago.

So who is in control is still decided by birth, not voting, but saying that, they'd have a council which perhaps I could make voted in. Something to think about.

The social class of my world in regards to women is going through a bit of a change, which coincides with the 1920s, which happens to be the era I mentioned relates the closest to my world. Taking the idea of voting and introducing it in the world would reinforce this - along with women starting to be hinted at joining armies, which is a topic in my book already. I already have several women ruling in place of their dead husbands and making no effort to replace them - don't think they need to. Although one daughter of a countess in this situation is being pressured into finding a match for herself to take over once her mother is gone, but there is a lot of drama involved in that story arc which encourages women's rights.

Contraception, no, the world isn't medically advanced. Two natural materials allowed for the development of steampunk-like technology, but not medicine. Blackflour(gunpowder) and a magical type of crystal that can hold an electrical charge like batteries.

The world is caught between pre and post industrialism, it's just starting to come into force, but of course with my worlds own flavour to it.

Nobody would've known this by the excerpt, or perhaps might be possible by reading between the lines, but their mother is dead, and the dress is more a symbolism to them, rather than a practicality.

It's a very nice dress, even though would show it's age now, but would be the sort of thing they'd still wear to a ball. The reason Alyce wants to wear it has nothing to do with that though, and everything to do with what it means to her. She is sentimental.

NB pre the 20th century, I can't think of any age or society where a boy would ask a girl to a dance -- he might ask her for a dance when they were there, but the dances themselves would be open to everyone (or at least everyone of the right sort).

Ah, I see what I should change in the dialogue now. Thanks.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Had a little play with the dialogue about dancing. Now it reflects what TJ suggested about not being asked to a dance.

***​

The breeze trickled through the canopy of trees, casting its cold touch throughout the orchard. Emylynn smiled, and pulled the hair back from her head, determined to enjoy every second of this blessed cool that relieved the heat of the spring sun. If only she didn’t have her shadow, then the day would be perfect. She glanced back, glaring at her sister.

Emylynn was sure the gods gave the world younger sisters to torture their siblings, and so far Alyce had been doing a more than satisfactory job.

‘Do you think Ben will be at the dance?’ Alyce asked her, for what must have been the hundredth time, which was ninety-nine times more than Emylynn felt like answering.

‘I hope so,’ Alyce said. ‘Then he can ask me to dance with him.’

A flurry of possible answers raced through her head, each one worse than the next, and no less true than the first. She bit her tongue. Emylynn couldn’t be sure their father’s stable hand had even looked Alyce’s way, let alone shown any desire to dance with her.

*​

 

[ctg]

Why sorry? Because I'm scared of posting these ones in case I get it completely wrong. In fact, I'm really scared to post my pieces in the critique or elsewhere, and to be honest, I really don't want to do the 2000'th post one.

 

[Ursa major]

Most of us are a bit wary of these posts, ctg, but following a tradition, particularly a very new one, can be important.



* Goes back to worrying about his own, fast-approaching x000 post. *

 

[Warren_Paul]

Yeah, it can be scary.

When people put up critiques they don't know what kind of feedback they are going to get, sometimes it might be bad, sometimes good. Sometimes you look at it and scratch your head, and feel at a loss as to why changes were even suggested.

Not everyone is going to like what you write, not everyone is going to like the critiques they receive, but that shouldn't ever stop you placing them up. 99.9% of people are trying to help, not discourage you, even if their critiques sound harsh at the time.

Most of us are a bit wary of these posts, ctg, but following a tradition, particularly a very new one, can be important.

wary?

EDIT: Oh right, I get it. we are talking specifically about 1000 post critiques and how senior members might react.

I hadn't really thought it different to any other critique.

 

[Ursa major]

Wary about posting our writing, as the x000 tradition demands. (People have been known to post them in areas of the Chrons where critiquing by other Chrons members isn't an option. )

 

[Bowler1]

Very nice WP, a good 1,000th post. There was a good feel to the segment and the characters felt young.

As with others, I thought, the thoughts after speechs were a little over worked, but this is minor only - the segement works as it is.

Well done on your posting rate.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Thanks, Bowler. Glad you enjoyed it.

Yes, the internal thoughts appears to be a thing with me, not sure where to go with it as yet. My intention was to show what she really wanted to say but couldn't because it would upset Alyce. It's something Joe Abercrombie did in his First Law books with Golkta, and something I wanted to experiment with, but didn't work.

hmm, off to ponder...

Thanks.

 

[suralxiong]

Seems like good work though I had a hard time staying with it. I can't tell you why so maybe its just that I need more coffee. Everyone else seems to think its great.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Seems like good work though I had a hard time staying with it. I can't tell you why so maybe its just that I need more coffee. Everyone else seems to think its great.

Thanks, Suralxiong.

I think it's probably that even though it appears to be written well, it lacked that bit of credibility, which I hope I've since fixed. The whole, teenage siblings bickering with each other is not everyone's cup of tea - or coffee - either.

Welcome to the Chrons btw.

 

[Bowler1]

The difference between thinking and saying is a good idea, in this case it did add to the feeling of bickering, and was a useful tool to highlight the tension between the characters. Less is more sometimes, which I suspect is where you might have already got to.

4 Times my posting rate, where do you find time to write?

 

[Warren_Paul]

Thanks Bowler.

Yeah, I reduced it down to just the ones I felt absolutely necessary.

My writing is my job pretty much - just wish I got paid for it.

And I just have way to much to say for myself.

 

[Bowler1]

If you ever do get to print I'll buy your book, so that's two sold, as I'm sure you'll get one for your shelves!

 

[Zorita]

I like the bickering, and I like the change to lemons (was just about to suggest it when I saw you changed it, my lemons are just about ripe now and hard to get off the tree! )

Personally I think the tone of the dialogue is good, that it shows culture rather than a specific era. I'd keep reading because the language is good and I like the little propeller, having a mind on its own to catch lemons.

 

[Warren_Paul]

Thanks Zorita, glad you enjoyed it.

Hopefully in the next few months we'll hear something about it, I'm close to submitting the book now.