If you're not scared, you're not doing it right?

[mithril]

No one mentioned the amount of time involved or the grumpy partners when I started writing again a year and a half ago now. Or the riased eyebrows when I talk of year(s) to come without any success.

I'm thankful that my partner hasn't started going grumpy yet But he does more than raise his eyebrows when I say it could well be a decade before I am done with my 1st WIP. I thought it only fair to let him know what he's letting himself in for if I 'get serious'

 

[Peter Graham]

I do love writing, but I know that I have to push myself to an absolute limit, to "torture" myself at times, in order to truly do it well.
That scares me.

OK. I'm not going to argue with you. If it scares you, it scares you. But let's not shower writing - or, indeed, any form of creative expression - with too much pixie dust. Doing anything well - be it writing or dry stone walling - involves pushing yourself. But you rarely hear a dry stone waller saying they were scared by the learning process. Exhausted, enthused, confused - possibly.

And while aspire to being published one day (why not?), even if that weren't the case I'd push myself to a 'scary' degree. I owe it to myself and to my characters

You owe nothing to your characters. They aren't real, although I accept I'm in a minority on this one (check out the "Are my characters real or am I insane" thread).

Sometimes some of you around Chrons do seem arrogant.

You're entitled to your opinion. Sometimes, I think a few people need to pull themselves together. But that's just my opinion.

Maybe you're all just far cleverer than me, so you don't need to work so hard in order to write to a high standard?

Whether "cleverer" and "writing to a high standard" correlate in the way you seem to imply could fill a fair size thread. That said, I agree that for some people, writing is easier than for others. Whether they are writing anything of any greater value is an entirely different question.

Whether stated with tongue in cheek or not, I absolutely relate to that statement, for good or ill.

Brian's comment raises some interesting questions about story. Do stories exist independently of the writer, as Stephen King and others seem to believe? I think I'd argue that the themes do, but the stories don't.

Regards,

Peter

 

[Coragem]

But you rarely hear a dry stone waller saying they were scared by the learning process. Exhausted, enthused, confused - possibly.

Might "exhaustion, enthusiasm and confusion" be scary at times? Just a thought.

You owe nothing to your characters.

No more than an artist might owe to half-formed sculpture. But then, a sculpture might become something unique, one of a kind, special, with a life of it's own separate from the artist.

You're entitled to your opinion. Sometimes, I think a few people need to pull themselves together. But that's just my opinion.

Sometimes people do need to "pull themselves together". More often they benefit from a degree of empathy, together with support and strategies to bolster self-belief.

Saying to someone "you need to pull yourself together" is insensitive – it will often make them feel like a failure, only further damaging self-belief.

That said, I agree that for some people, writing is easier than for others.

Absolutely, hence empathy again, and understanding that what isn't so hard, or isn't scary for some, can be very hard and scary for others.

I'm a mental health professional, an athlete, I have a first-class BAHons degree. I've accomplished much without being scared. Writing fiction, however, is the most challenging thing I have attempted, hence the apprehension. Fair enough, I think.

Coragem

 

[Peter Graham]

No more than an artist might owe to half-formed sculpture. But then, a sculpture might become something unique, one of a kind, special, with a life of it's own separate from the artist.

I agree - it might become something unique. But it's far more likely not to. Same goes for books. A small number are truly wonderful. A much larger number are entertaining, but really don't bring that much to the sum total of human happiness. With the advent of e-self publishing, a larger number still are badly written, derivative tosh which is no more unique than a song by Oasis.

Sometimes people do need to "pull themselves together". More often they benefit from a degree of empathy, together with support and strategies to bolster self-belief.

I agree. But are they entitled to expect that level of emotional support from compete strangers on the internet? This, I think, is the rub. As the stickies say, critiques will be critical. The job of a forum like this (if indeed it has a job at all in the strict sense of the word) is to allow folk to exchange views and ideas in a spirit of mutual co-operation and respect. Any of us who are serious about getting into writing - and I think this includes both you and I - have to get used to hard knocks. Chrons is a very safe and supportive environment as we put a toe in the waters, but to soft soap people or indulge their worries is to do them no favours whatsoever.

Look - when I say some people need to pull themselves together, don't think I'm sniping at you, because I'm not. I am talking in very general terms.

Saying to someone "you need to pull yourself together" is insensitive – it will often make them feel like a failure, only further damaging self-belief.

What if it's true?

Absolutely, hence empathy again, and understanding that what isn't so hard, or isn't scary for some, can be very hard and scary for others.

The impication behind the title of this thread - and therefore the subject for discussion - is that if you aren't scared when writing, you are doing something wrong. I don't see how disagreeing with that shows a lack of empathy. I'd hate to think that folk who are deriving some harmless fun from writing should be made to think that unless they are tortured artists, they are not doing it "right" or are not producing anything valid.

Regards,

Peter

 

[Coragem]

… With the advent of e-self publishing, a larger number still are badly written, derivative tosh which is no more unique than a song by Oasis.

Very true. Although I guess we could debate whether 'tosh' still has value if it has deep emotional meaning for it's author. Maybe …

Any of us who are serious about getting into writing - and I think this includes both you and I - have to get used to hard knocks.

Look - when I say some people need to pull themselves together, don't think I'm sniping at you, because I'm not. I am talking in very general terms.

Very fair points. I agree. And thank you. Although while an internet forum isn't a place for emotional support, it is a place where sensitivity is vital – particularly important given that words on a screen, without body language cues, are so easy to misinterpret.

The impication behind the title of this thread - and therefore the subject for discussion - is that if you aren't scared when writing, you are doing something wrong.

You're right, Peter. Absolutely. It is totally wrong to say that author's 'ought' to feel scared. As noted above, we're all different, there often isn't a 'right' or 'wrong', and often all we can do is try to empathise with one another's very different feelings and responses.

Coragem

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I would never think of fear as a constructive part of the creative process. Writer's block can come from a number of sources, but fear is one of them. Wanting something too much can tie you up in knots.

At the same time, I do see some truth in that quote, as a caution against over-confidence. If you don't feel some doubts about the quality of what you are writing, then you'll be blind to any weakness in your work, and you will never strive to improve.

 

[James Coote]

It depends on the person

Some people find fear a great driver (they want to get as far away from it as possible)

Others find it debilitating. They get paralysed by it and need to lose it to get anywhere

You're entitled to your opinion. Sometimes, I think a few people need to pull themselves together. But that's just my opinion.

Again it depends on the person. For some, it might be just the right advice. However, tell that to someone who is clinically depressed and you're doing the equivalent of kicking the crutches from underneath them.

Depressed people don't walk around with crutches or other obvious labels, so unless you're into casual Sadism, I suggest you never say that to someone you don't truly know

 

[Peter Graham]

Depressed people don't walk around with crutches or other obvious labels, so unless you're into casual Sadism, I suggest you never say that to someone you don't truly know

Thanks for the invaluable insight. I had no idea.

Regards,

Peter

 

[Bowler1]

Peter has very valid points and we can't protect people from the world, depressed or otherwise. I would never put Peter into the sensitive box but I see no reason why he should amend his views on the off chance that someone clinically depressed might be offended. I’m not depressive in anyway myself, but I know from personal experience coddling never does any patent good, no matter what the affliction.

Now count to ten everyone, and step away from the keyboards before we upset each other.

Mithril, I find wild and outrageous promises of when I’m rich and famous help, as in – ‘Yes dear, you can have that big house when I’m a successful author!’
Now shut up and let me write!

 

[Susan Boulton]

If you don't feel some doubts about the quality of what you are writing, then you'll be blind to any weakness in your work, and you will never strive to improve.

These words are gold.

I think everyone reaches a point when they believe they know what they are doing, and their work is wonderful. They have received a few good critiques, maybe sold a couple of short stories and, well, they know what they are doing. Wrong. You don't. You are only as good as the next thing you write, and you will write stuff that stinks, and continues to do so, no matter how much you work on it. I think a bit of fear/worry about whether what you are producing will hit the mark you set yourself (or what your agent/publisher expects and knows you can produce) keeps you from getting blasé.

I know everything I write now has to do just that, it is not just a matter of pleasing myself anymore. I have to show others I am producing the best I can and that does at times cause the stomach to do the odd flip flop now and then.

And on the subject of a partner moaning. I can say mine has never moaned about the hours I spend writing, then again I don't moan about the hours he spends re mountain/road biking.

 

[James Coote]

Sorry, I went a bit overboard in my last post. I'd still recommend looking it up though. Talk to someone better qualified than me

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Sometimes, I think a few people need to pull themselves together. But that's just my opinion.

Since we can't really know the circumstances of everyone we meet on these forums, or the difficulties they may face in "pulling themselves together," I think that's the kind of advice we can do without.

Let's just stick to critiquing each other's work.

 

[Coragem]

Let's just stick to critiquing each other's work.

In a sensitive way. And sensitivity isn't about coddling, it's about being honest, respectful, and balanced.

Respectful – we're all special, unique, worthy of some sort of unconditional positive regard and also basic courtesy.

Balanced – depressed people tend to filter out positive, only see negatives, so lets not make the same mistake when we critique.

Balance, seeing both positives and negatives, is more honest, a more accurate and evidence-based reflection of what we see.

Coragem.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Coragem, I understand about depression -- I've been fighting it for a long time, and lately it's winning. I also understand about fear. For a lot of people here, writing is secondary to their real careers, or something they've taken up after retirement. For me, writing is it. If I am not good enough (if I don't meet my own standards), then in my own estimation I will be a failure. It's a terrifying prospect.

But anyone who comes here expecting sympathy has come to the wrong place. Tact and constructive criticism, yes, because those are our rules. Telling someone who is in a downward spiral to just get over it is stupid and counterproductive, and that's unacceptable, but we can't expect other people to bolster us up, either. That's not their job.

And I don't see anything constructive about offering false praise in the name of balance.
.
.

 

[Broamalia]

Scared of rejection, scared of exposure. I am incredibly anxious that there be no mistakes or incongruities in the writing. I'm terrified that my plots are pointless, or boring, or that my endings are unsatisfying. Im afraid that I'm too anxious to end my stories, so that they come across as rushed or incomplete.
im especially scared that Im not developing my characters enough, that i dont care about them enough.
Mostly its the exposure thing. Thats why im trying to get involved with this forum... Community is a good thing for the insular sort like me...

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'm with TE on this one. I have a tendency to anxiety, which flares up and down accordingly. It's up to me to manage that, not to expect anyone on the forum to avoid saying anything that might set it off. If I can't take what's said to me, or if something sets me off, then I need to either learn to handle it a little better or not put myself up for it again.

At the start, I did find the process of offering work for critique did make me very anxious (mainly the waiting) but I also knew if I was serious about the writing I had to do it. Now, I'm very lucky that I've also found great support here, and a whole bunch of people who have advised, responding to despairing pms about apostrophes (yes, yes, of course it was Chrispy), and lots of people who've ploughed through various drafts of my WIP from the downright ropey (and some of them have even volunteered again for the second, brave people that they are) to the slightly more comprehensible - I hope.

It was only by facing the fear of having my stuff read - a fear that had held me back from serious writing for 20 years - that I got to the point where I'm in any way confident about it. So, fear can be good, facing it can be good, but the management of that fear - if you have it - is with you, not others on an internet forum.

Oh and hi Broamalia, welcome to the Chrons, which I have found overwhelmingly supportive.

 

[Coragem]

And I don't see anything constructive about offering false praise in the name of balance.
.
.

Neither do I. Not what I said. But balanced criticism can be more honest and evidence-based so long as it reflects true positives.

Certainly re. stuff for critique at Chrons, I think there is always something truthfully positive to say, even if it's something like, "y shows promise, so maybe if you build on it." Or "Were you to keep doing x this would be much improved."

All that said, it's probably inevitable that people will be hurt or disappointed at times, because people often have excessively high expectations – they set themselves up for a fall. Anyone who wants to hear, 'Yes, brilliant, you write just as well as GRRM or Ursula LeGuin' is going to be upset … For a few days. Until they get real and focus on getting the years and years of practice they need to get better.

Coragem.

 

[Bowler1]

Welcome Broamalia, you picked a good thread to join us on. You will get somegreat support on here, and we'll do what we can to help, like friends should, however.....

Like all good friends, there will be days when you'll want to punch our lights out!

In the end we all want to do the same thing, which is writing. Being worried does help produce better results, focuses the mind!

 

[Sho Pi]

I'm new here. I'll try to fill my 30 posts quota in a serious and genuine way, and then I'll put some of my work up for a hopefully helpful critique. I have posted two advices to critiques so far, and I will look into doing some more as new ones are offered up; I don't want to be the 10th one in a thread.

What I look for personally in these reviews is that my hidden flaws will come to light. When grammatical errors are concerned I don't need balance, just show me where I went astray and I'll be very happy. On style, characters and story itself, I would like to be offered not only criticism but only responses about things that you as the reader find good. In the end that's why we are writing and I think such encouragements go a long way in keeping the writer going. Otherwise you might start to feel that you are efforts are futile and that no one connects with it.

 

[Peter Graham]

Since we can't really know the circumstances of everyone we meet on these forums, or the difficulties they may face in "pulling themselves together," I think that's the kind of advice we can do without.

I never offered this as "advice", as was self-evident from my post. I merely - and clearly - stated that it was my opinion. I made no comment about genuine mental illness and to pretend or imply otherwise is disingenuous.

Regards,

Peter