This is all true, of course (except the insignificant nitpick that Sidious's exact words were "Lord Tyranus", which means exactly the same thing, of course).
I was mostly thinking about how a politician would know whether those two Jedi would be a match for a Sith Lord, but he shouldn't really know either.
Ah, yes. You're right. You can probably tell I haven't done my re-watch of Episode 2 yet Palpatine could have been considering the past experience Obi Wan and Anakin had with Dooku. Of course, if he was considering that, he should have said something along the lines of, "Get help. You're no match for him. He wiped the floor with you two before."
Yes, that is exactly my point. He may have wanted to display Palpatine's power hunger very clearly to the audience, and frankly, the franchise and the genre in general has always been a bit theatrical. The wicked villains are vivid portrayed as such.
It is a bit in the style...
"I am this evil lord, and I have SO MUCH POWER. Mwha-hahahaha."
It is often a bit more sofisticated than that, but the trope and the general message boils down to it. I am sure you know which trope I am referring to.
Still, that does not work all too well with manipulation. What Palpatine was trying to accomplish (and also did accomplish, of course) required making others believe the role he took upon himself as well-intentioned senator and later chancellor. That meant playing the part constantly except the few times when doing otherwise was required to advance his goals. I am not a master manipulator myself, but I am fairly sure someone who is would not look like it.
Indeed And Palpatine seemed much less like a master manipulator, and more like a master troll at certain times in those movies.
Now, I am not arguing against you, because it looks like you basically agree with me here. I also have the point that I remember Lucas comparing him with Padmé, saying that she left her office as Queen of Naboo when the constitution required it, as opposed to Palpatine using one crisis after another to extend his period in office as Chancellor. I suppose he was inspired by the checks and balances of the US constitution requiring the president to step down after two periods (that is not like my country, where the prime minister can stay as long as his party gets re-elected). In essense, Lucas says Palpatine has sidestepped the Republic constitution (by Episode II, before clone wars, I take it, since that is in the Episode II commentary) to stay longer than would normally be permitted..
Interesting comparison between Padme and Palpatine. I think I also remember him saying that during the commentary. It sounds very familiar.
I see his point about Palpatine getting around the checks and balances, and it is really a good point, but then again, having Palpatine do this is not very good manipulation. It would have made more sense for him to not do any such power grabs (except possibly emergency powers during wartime) until he was ready to grab all in one swift stroke. Wanting to show Anakin that young increased the gap in time between him becoming chancellor and emperor, I suppose, as it extended the timespan of the prequels. Still, having him declaring the empire within his constitutionally permitted periods as chancellor would not harm his goals in any way. It would just have removed one suspicious thing about him as a politician.
Yes, I guess George Lucas did try to turn the whole "young Anakin" thing to his advantage. Older Anakin would have made an extra term for Palpatine unnecessary, and would have made him a more believable manipulator. I find it very hard to believe that a senate of literally tens of thousands were made to believe that they needed that one man, and that one man only, to remain in office to insure the greatest results during war time.
I am not really sure exactly what theories you saw people present, but the evil emperor being a Palpatine clone sounds weird. It would have made more sense the other way around.
Still, Sidious and Senator/Chancellor Palpatine being separate people could have worked, I think. That is, Sidious would have been the emperor, of course. Palpatine could have been some lookalike puppet of his, perhaps even unknowingly. The nice Palpatine could then be disposed of when the time came to declare the empire, with Sidious taking his place with a swap.
While it is a twist that might be hard to pull off (I never really considered it seriously), like how you would explain his interest in Anakin (which should probably not have been there, either way), it would provide Sidious with a few advantages. The Jedi would probably have an even harder time exposing a Palpatine who was actually good and meant well (but still controlled by Sidious, of course). It would free time for Sidious to plot even more. If Palpatine got caught, Sidious would still not get caught.
Still, this did not happen. However, I have seen stranger theories than the one about those two being separate people.
True. It would have worked better the other way around. Though, I think for the plot to swing that way at all would stretch George Lucas' limits of control even farther than they already were. The plot would most likely end up even more unnecessarily convoluted. It was so tangled and loose by the end of episode 2 that having the "Palpatine puppet" would have to be very carefully done not to end up like the rest of the issues we've been discussing. We all know, George Lucas isn't careful enough to really pull it off, not when so much screen time is focused on Anakin, and other characters and plot threads get pushed to the side.
As for Dooku saying Darth Sidious controlling the Republic, it did not strictly mean it had to be Palpatine, as real power does not always require formal power. As far as the Jedi knew could have been some power behind the throne, so to speak. For all they knew, any aide in the senate could have been Darth Sidious.
Still, it feels strange that he would even put them on that track. I think many people saw that as him deceiving the Jedi by telling the truth, thinking it would push them away from believing that notion. Well, there is a problem with that strategy.
The thing about that logical problem, when you wish to deceive someone who does not trust you, whether to tell them the truth or lie, is that there is no right answer. The same goes for whether it is best for the non-trusting party to believe the deceiver is telling the truth or lying. This logical problem was mentioned in an episode of Fringe, or in essense the same problem (same basic structure, but different context, which doesn't matter to the problem's logical part here), as I recall, although I have had had basically the same idea before, so it sounded quite correct. Here is basically my paraphrasing.
Let us say A wishes to deceive B, who does not trust him or her.
1. A would lie, in order to deceive B.
2. Then B would think that A would lie to him or her, and assume A was lying.
3. Then A would think that B would think that he was lying (2), and instead tell the truth in order to deceive B.
So far so good with Dooku telling Obi-Wan the truth about Darth Sidious controlling in order to deceive him, because Obi-Wan would think him a liar and he knew it. The reasoning behind that goes to 3. Now here comes the interesting twist.
4. Then B would think A would think it best to tell the truth, because of 3, and therefore assume A was telling the truth.
5. Then A would think B would believe him, because of 4, and lie to deceive him after all.
6. Then B would think A would lie because of 5, and assume that.
Do you see the recurring pattern here? It is an endless loop, flipping back and forth between whether it is best for A to tell the truth or lie in order to deceive. The same goes for whether it is best for B to assume A told the truth or lied.
No matter how far you go, the other party can always take the next step in this loop. So here, when one person wishes to deceive and the other to expose the truth, the "he knows that you know that he knows that..." can literally go on forever. Someone who gets informed something by a deceptive person cannot assume the deceptive person would to always lie, as Yoda seems to do with Dooku initially. If either the A or B turns out to be predictable to the other party, they will lose this little game.
And therein lies the flaw in informing the Jedi about Sidious controlling the senate in the hopes of them rejecting the notion. If both parties are unpredictable to the other, it is a 50/50 chance of getting it right.
When someone isn't thinking about something you don't want them to think about, it is almost alwas far better to say nothing and leave it like that.
That is, of course, assuming Dooku did not indeed wish to inform the Jedi, for some reason.
I'm almost certain Dooku knew what sort of situation he was putting the jedi in by divulging that information. (which was why it was such a good ida for him to do so) Perhaps there was a slight chance that Obi Wan might be swayed by it, but Dooku also sought to sew doubt and discord among his enemies. I've never really faulted the jedi for not believing Dooku. Although, to completely disregard his claims without a follow up investigation is a bit sloppy. Despite that, it was more Palpatine's willingness to spout off about Sith Legends that I was focusing on before. Although it seemed to mostly get lost in storytelling, the jedi had been investigating the second sith lord since episode 1. They knew he was out there. Dooku eluded to him (which the jedi took as a lie) but then Palpatine begins reciting Sith Legend, which gives some credence to Dooku's claims. Where would Palpatine hear of such a legend about the Sith, when they were supposed to be in deep seclusion for the last 1000 years? Palpatine seemed too intimately involved with the Sith and the force in general, for Anakin not to start sensing something was amiss.
After that scene, it's sort of stretching believability that Anakin is surprised when Palpatine reveals himself as the Sith Lord a few scenes later.
Ah, yes. You're right. You can probably tell I haven't done my re-watch of Episode 2 yet Palpatine could have been considering the past experience Obi Wan and Anakin had with Dooku. Of course, if he was considering that, he should have said something along the lines of, "Get help. You're no match for him. He wiped the floor with you two before."
Aye, showing his truly evil nature makes sense in the original trilogy, when he already has all the power, but until then, during his manipulative plot during the prequels, not showing even a hint of his evil unless absolutely neccessary would be most in line with his best interest.
Interesting comparison between Padme and Palpatine. I think I also remember him saying that during the commentary. It sounds very familiar.
Yes, I guess George Lucas did try to turn the whole "young Anakin" thing to his advantage. Older Anakin would have made an extra term for Palpatine unnecessary, and would have made him a more believable manipulator. I find it very hard to believe that a senate of literally tens of thousands were made to believe that they needed that one man, and that one man only, to remain in office to insure the greatest results during war time.
Yeah, and also remember the senate believing him with his totally obviously evil face in Episode III, and that the Jedi needed to be executed without trial. redlettermedia made fun of that.
True. It would have worked better the other way around. Though, I think for the plot to swing that way at all would stretch George Lucas' limits of control even farther than they already were. The plot would most likely end up even more unnecessarily convoluted. It was so tangled and loose by the end of episode 2 that having the "Palpatine puppet" would have to be very carefully done not to end up like the rest of the issues we've been discussing. We all know, George Lucas isn't careful enough to really pull it off, not when so much screen time is focused on Anakin, and other characters and plot threads get pushed to the side.
Yes, you are right. Lucas would never have been able make such a plot work, and the plot would probably have ended up even messier than how it was. The fact that something would be messy did not stop him before, though. I was speaking more in general.
But anyway, yes, as we have discussed, Anakin getting so much screen time at the expense of other characters that needed development (when it is not taken up by some Gungan) is, and will probably always remain, one of my main issues with the prequels. I have been discussing this on TF.N in the last couple of days, calling the prequels a "nostalgic ego trip for original trilogy characters, particularly Anakin". They do seem to be made simply to make characters that are already known shine, at the expense of prequel only characters. Someone on that forum even said there was a point that Maul and Dooku were less developed than Vader, basically in order not to steal the spotlight.
I really don't like that view. It is a very bad idea devolve newer (to the audience) fictional characters intentionally, just to keep them from taking any room from older characters in the same franchise. It is totally a recipe for failure to make the new stuff compelling, as it makes for nothing more than a lame copy of the original films.
The characters that were most underdeveloped were Darth Maul, Count Dooku and Mace Windu, in my opinion. The Sith Apprentice(s) needed to be strong characters in their own right, rather than just placeholders for Vader, and it was also of great importance that the audience could relate to the Jedi leader to fall with the order, as I have already pointed out.
What many people (including Lucas, it seems) fail to realize that the in-story characters won't know what happens in the narrative future. The Sith won't put every egg in the "Anakin falling to the dark side" basket, and the Jedi don't know who within their order will survive in the next few years, and who will not. "Main characters" are a concept for the audience that has no meaning to those in-story.
So, when Mace Windu is not used against Sith in Episodes I and II (and Yoda not in Episode I), it makes little sense that the Jedi would set up that strategy. Surely Yoda + Windu combo would have been stronger against Darth Maul than the Qui-Gon + Obi-Wan, likely resulting in a captured or killed Maul with no Jedi deaths. And if Windu had arrived when Yoda dueled Dooku in Episode II, I doubt Dooku could have escaped.
Let us look at the return to Naboo in Episode I. That was the clue they needed to unravel the mystery of the Sith, according to Mace Windu. Like redlettermedia pointed out, they should probably have sent lots of Jedi, but if they were limited to two, I would argue that Windu was almost definitely more qualified to face a Sith for the first time in a thousand years than Kenobi, at that point. It was the Master of the Order vs. a Padawan. Experience weighed in Windu's favour, as did sheer power. With what we know about individual Jedi's power now, Yoda + Windu would almost definitely have made strongest combo of two Jedi.
But Obi-Wan went, because he is "far more important character than Mace Windu in the films". Well, again, that is based on what the author and the audience knows about the narrative future in the saga. To the in-story characters, they don't know Obi-Wan is "more important" than Windu anymore than they know Palpatine is a Sith. At that point in the story, Obi-Wan's role in the original trilogy has not happened yet, and Windu by far outranked him, meaning that to all the in-story characters, Mace Windu would actually be a MORE important person than Obi-Wan Kenobi. This is not even my opinion, just a fact based on how people would evaluate importance of other people. Not until Obi-Wan gets promoted to Knight at the end of Episode I can even a case be made for him having the same importance in-story, and only because he gets to train the Chosen One.
Sorry for long text, but do you see what I am saying, that people fail to distinguish between importance of characters in a narrative sense (what is known to the AUDIENCE about the overall saga), and importance of characters as they would seem to other characters in the story at that very point in time. Frankly, if the Jedi could base their decisions on what is known to the AUDIENCE about the narrative future, why didn't they just assassinate Palpatine back then?
Since I have seen that you have read The Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan, I will make a little analogy. Saying that the Jedi would base their decisions on some awareness Obi-Wan as more important than Mace is a bit like saying that...
...people in the royal palace of Andor would see Rand al'Thor as more important than Morgase Trankand when they first meet in the first book. At that point, it is unknown to almost everyone who and what Rand is, making him an ordinary young man against the queen (to them, not us).
I am sure we don't need to argue about whether Rand is a more important character than Morgase in the series, as it is clearly obvious to everyone who has read it that he is actually vastly more important, with a gap that is even wider than the one between Kenobi and Windu.
I'm almost certain Dooku knew what sort of situation he was putting the jedi in by divulging that information. (which was why it was such a good ida for him to do so) Perhaps there was a slight chance that Obi Wan might be swayed by it, but Dooku also sought to sew doubt and discord among his enemies. I've never really faulted the jedi for not believing Dooku. Although, to completely disregard his claims without a follow up investigation is a bit sloppy. Despite that, it was more Palpatine's willingness to spout off about Sith Legends that I was focusing on before. Although it seemed to mostly get lost in storytelling, the jedi had been investigating the second sith lord since episode 1. They knew he was out there. Dooku eluded to him (which the jedi took as a lie) but then Palpatine begins reciting Sith Legend, which gives some credence to Dooku's claims. Where would Palpatine hear of such a legend about the Sith, when they were supposed to be in deep seclusion for the last 1000 years? Palpatine seemed too intimately involved with the Sith and the force in general, for Anakin not to start sensing something was amiss.
After that scene, it's sort of stretching believability that Anakin is surprised when Palpatine reveals himself as the Sith Lord a few scenes later.
Yes, I do see what you are saying about why Dooku told it to Obi-Wan, and that is probably just how it was intended. Still, it is risking the Jedi making a very thorough investigation, and could backfire on the Sith plans.
As for the part about Anakin is surprised when told Palpatine is a Sith Lord, I totally agree, of course. It is not particularly believable that he would be surprised after the opera scene.
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Palpatine could have been considering the past experience Obi Wan and Anakin had with Dooku. Of course, if he was considering that, he should have said something along the lines of, "Get help. You're no match for him. He wiped the floor with you two before."
