What if Jon Snow is just a *******?

[Stribog]

Yeah he could, and let's ALL hope he WILL (got my fingers crossed ).

 

[garion77]

I disagree that Jon's heritage need to come out... What do Jon heritage have to do with the biggest threat to the Kingdom? The Others... Jon has the most important job in the entire book... Stopping the Others. It don't matter who win the Iron Throne if the Others get pass the wall...

I don't believe that Jon will be recognized as anything other the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Just like Tyrion didn't get any credit for saving KL from Stannis. Lord Tywin got all the credit and everyone else. GRRM write realistic stories in a fantasy world. Those who really make a difference hardly get recognized.

The same will be with Jon and the Night Watch. If I wanted to read stories where the hero is celebrated and honored for all their good and noble deeds, I would read David Eddings...

GRRM isn't going to give us that happy ever after ending. If things went like they should, Robb wouldn't have made a bone headed decision and broke his promise. Stannis wouldn't have killed his brother and Renly would have took KL... Dany wouldn't have killed Khal Drago indirectly... Ned would have sent Loras Tyrell after Gregor instead of Dondarion (High garden and Winterfell would have united)...

GRRM theme through the whole series is nothing ever happens like we want them to... GRRM like poking his readers in the eye and I don't think its going to change this late in the game...

That's why we love him...

 

[juleska]

Well you're technically correct in that it doesn't *have* to, but I do think the topic will be forced by the story at some point....depending on which direction GRRM takes Jon's story. If Jon's only destiny is to defeat The Others and continue serving as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, then his parentage doesn't mean a damn thing. But if his story takes him south and anywhere in the vicinity of the Iron Throne, it will absolutely matter. Not necessarily to me and you, but to the other characters.

 

[Koopa]

I don't believe that Jon will be recognized as anything other the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch. Just like Tyrion didn't get any credit for saving KL from Stannis. Lord Tywin got all the credit and everyone else. GRRM write realistic stories in a fantasy world. Those who really make a difference hardly get recognized.

Tyrion was overlooked, but let's be fair here without Tywin's timely arrival STannis would have won the day. The imp defenses where more than Stannis had foreseen, but they where reaching their limit. (What with Tyrion himself needing to lead the charge, the gold cloaks fleeing, .... .)
Take Tywin and the power of Highgarden away and Stannis would have been sitting the Iro throne by day's end. Surrounded by a couple of sweetly spiked/burned heads.

 

[pedro_1013]

Well you're technically correct in that it doesn't *have* to, but I do think the topic will be forced by the story at some point....depending on which direction GRRM takes Jon's story. If Jon's only destiny is to defeat The Others and continue serving as Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, then his parentage doesn't mean a damn thing. But if his story takes him south and anywhere in the vicinity of the Iron Throne, it will absolutely matter. Not necessarily to me and you, but to the other characters.

An interesting thing would be the fall of the the Night's Watch and the Wall. This could happen at the start of the winds of winter, just after Jon being stabbed. And then with the end of the Night's Watch, Jon's (if he's still alive, i think he is) story could develop in something more than fighting the Others.

 

[garion77]

An interesting thing would be the fall of the the Night's Watch and the Wall. This could happen at the start of the winds of winter, just after Jon being stabbed. And then with the end of the Night's Watch, Jon's (if he's still alive, i think he is) story could develop in something more than fighting the Others.

If that happen, it would make the whole AA story line obsolete... The Night Watch is Lightbringer... And if the NW fall, so the the entire world... The NW will not fall... GRRM invested a lot in the NW storyline. If he was going to take the story away from the wall, he would have not had Stannis save them from the wildlings... And he wouldn't have set them up to prosper with the wildling feeling their ranks.

And most people missed something that was huge that Jon did... He allowed women to serve on the wall... During the entire existence of the NW, women never served on the wall... Jon is the only lord commander to ever do that... That is one of the biggest events of ADWD that no one is talking about...

 

[viZion]

If that happen, it would make the whole AA story line obsolete... The Night Watch is Lightbringer... And if the NW fall, so the the entire world... The NW will not fall... GRRM invested a lot in the NW storyline. If he was going to take the story away from the wall, he would have not had Stannis save them from the wildlings... And he wouldn't have set them up to prosper with the wildling feeling their ranks.

And most people missed something that was huge that Jon did... He allowed women to serve on the wall... During the entire existence of the NW, women never served on the wall... Jon is the only lord commander to ever do that... That is one of the biggest events of ADWD that no one is talking about...

Just because you keep saying things doesn't make them true . I've posted theories just as good as yours about why the Wall will fall. But all I have and you have and we all have are theories.

GRRM has invested a lot into the storyline of Jon's parentage as well. I'd argue he's invested even more time into Jon's parentage than just about anything else. Why? Because he's taken the time to WEAVE the hints into the story seamlessly. You think he invested more time into Arthur Dayne's backstory than Jon's but it's not true. It only seems that way because he simply dumped the story of Dayne into a few paragraphs and went on his way. With Jon, he's had to subtlety leave clues in a few sentences here and there. Why do you think it's the most talked about thing on every forum? Because he's invested a ton of time into making it that way.

You're right, that he doesn't HAVE to reveal Jon's parents. He doesn't really HAVE to do anything. But why wouldn't he? It doesn't make any sense to drop a million clues and then just let it go because he can't devote a sentence to revealing them later.

Put another way: The reason he's devoted so much time into hinting at Jon's parentage is because it's going to be *important* to the story.

 

[D.A. Madigan]

Jon Snow has, according to Tyrion, 'more of the North' in him than his trueborn brothers and sisters. So he ain't a Targaryen. And Ned Stark showed very uncommon compassion for Sersei's 'monsters born of incest' (his warning Sersei to take the kids and flee was, arguably, the fatal mistake that led to his death, and while Ned was certainly an unusually good man, this particular compassion for something unversally reviled by Westeros culture was, well, strange).

My theory is that Jon Snow is either Ned's child with his sister Lyanna, or Benjen Stark's child with Lyanna. Ned swore to Lyanna as she lay dying that he would protect Jon from the shame of being a 'monster of incest', and the only way to do that was to claim Jon as his *******, regardless of the strain it put on his own marriage.

Eventually, of course, Jon will have to find out about this, and he'll have to go through the whole "Oh gods oh gods I'm not just a ******* but I'm a child of incest" thing, and hate himself, and everyone else will hate him except for his TRUE FRIENDS, and eventually, he'll understand that a Man Of The Night's Watch Is Only What He Makes Of Himself, blah blah blah.

Not saying it won't be interesting, just, you know, that once you see it, the whole arc becomes entirely predictable.

 

[Tywin]

Wow, that's a bold theory.

Not one that I believe, but very bold and new.

How does the entire Rhaegar giving the flowers to Lyanna and 'kidnapping' her play into this theory? Is it all just smoke screen?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Wow, that's a bold theory.

Not one that I believe, but very bold and new.

How does the entire Rhaegar giving the flowers to Lyanna and 'kidnapping' her play into this theory? Is it all just smoke screen?

Agreed. A very bold theory.
personally, I can't see that being the case. not because I think GRRM wouldn't do something like that, I just don't see how it would all fit together with Rhaegar kidnapping her, and the tower of Joy business.

interesting theory though, and it has certainly given me something to think about.

What if Howland Reed is Jon's father? didn't lyanna help him at some tournament? maybe the secret Ned had to keep was that he wouldn't tell Howland, because Lyanna didn't want jon to end up living in a swamp and eating Frogs. That would mean he had to lie to his wife AND his friend.

please don't take this theory seriously. I don't actually believe it, Just pointing out that it could end up being ANYTHING!

 

[pedro_1013]

My theory is that Jon Snow is either Ned's child with his sister Lyanna, or Benjen Stark's child with Lyanna. Ned swore to Lyanna as she lay dying that he would protect Jon from the shame of being a 'monster of incest', and the only way to do that was to claim Jon as his *******, regardless of the strain it put on his own marriage.

I don't think Ned is Jon's father. But i always wonder why Benjen went to the watch (any ideas?)...having a child from a incestous relationship is a good reason. But it seems irrelevant for is story, being Benjen and Lyanna son wouldn't change much, only that he would be even more pissed and even more despised than he is now.

 

[Keebs411]

I don't think Ned is Jon's father. But i always wonder why Benjen went to the watch (any ideas?)...having a child from a incestous relationship is a good reason. But it seems irrelevant for is story, being Benjen and Lyanna son wouldn't change much, only that he would be even more pissed and even more despised than he is now.

Jon is always being said to have trong stark traights. so hes deff a stark and arya is always said to look like lyanna stark. and its alwats pointed out how much jon and araya look alike and related. so i deff think lyanna is his mother

as for benjen my theory is the rumor that ashara dayne was dishonored by a stark (i say no way it was ned) poss brandon, but im putting my money on benjen. weather or not he ment to dishonor her or not he did not go to the wall till after the rebellion and it was after the rebellion ashara was said to have lept to her death (for multi poss reasons) if he did care for him or ever though his past actions were the cause i could see him choosing to go to the wall because of it.
brandon was dead, why wouldnt ned appoint benjen to be lord of any of the other holds or near by lands of the north? To rule or look over the way it was thought rickon or bran would once rob inherrited winterfell? with 3 true born sons and 1 to be heir none of neds true borns were considered for the wall.

thats just my guess on the benjen joining the nw

 

[Tywin]

The problem with your logic:

As a 13-14 year old kid, if he had been the lover of a 20-something woman renowned for her beauty and then got her pregnant, etc, etc... then Benjen should have had severe shoulder injuries from the constant barrage of high-fives he would have gotten from every other pimple-faced teenager in Westeros.

Those kind of injuries would have been mentioned by GRRM, and probably would have kept him from being First Ranger (although admittedly Quorin was a great ranger even with his disability).

 

[juleska]

Yeah until someone can help me better understand the timeline if I'm missing something....I'm holding to my belief that Benjen was much too young and that Ashara was much too old for that to have been likely. I think it was Brandon or Ned's father. It depends how old we think Ashara was. She was old enough to be attracted to Barristan without being put off by his age, who would have been older than her still. Of course that also begs the question why a woman so beautiful and desirable was still single well into her 20s or possibly 30s (back when women were getting hitched at 13).

Also, her being older lends an explanation for the stillborn child. Nowadays we have the advancements of medical technology to make pregnancy much less risky, but even 40 years ago it was considered quite dangerous for a woman to have a child (especially her first ever) after the age of 40, and in the timeframe that Westeros would be set in (if it was a real story) it would be extremely dangerous to have your first child after the age of 30.

I think Ashara was in her early 30s. I have no reasonable explanation for why she was not married by then, perhaps she had been and she was widowed? I dunno. If that's in the story I don't recall it. But if she was in her early 30s then a 40 or 50 something year old Barristan is not out of the realm of possibility, nor is a 20-something year old Brandon. But even if we assume she was in her early 20s, the competition for her affection would be such that our dear Benjen didn't stand a chance.

Furthermore, as close as Jon was to his uncle, don't you think Benjen would have admitted being Jon's father? Why put that burden on Ned at all? That *only* works if you buy the incest argument, and I just don't. As disgusted as Ned was with Cersei's incest, he would've disowned his brother for that. And he certainly did not do that.

 

[Keebs411]

The problem with your logic:

As a 13-14 year old kid, if he had been the lover of a 20-something woman renowned for her beauty and then got her pregnant, etc, etc... then Benjen should have had severe shoulder injuries from the constant barrage of high-fives he would have gotten from every other pimple-faced teenager in Westeros.

Those kind of injuries would have been mentioned by GRRM, and probably would have kept him from being First Ranger (although admittedly Quorin was a great ranger even with his disability).

Ok thats makes sense then i wasnt to sure wat the age range would have been. I was going mostly by time phrame of events and assumed that he had been older

 

[Tywin]

I'm not sure it's stated precisely how old any of the Brandon-Eddard-Benjen boys were during the rebellion, but I think they did say that Benjen was too young to go on campaign.

 

[Stribog]

The way I see it, GRRM stated pretty clear that Jon has all the traits of a Stark, so Lienne, Ned and Brandon are the most likely candidates, because Benjen was too young and their father too old.

Other parent is the mystery, and, frankly, I think that all possibilities are explored, from fisher girl to Ashara Dayne and Rhaegar Targaryen. GRRM make sure that there are enough intriguing stories related to Jon's heritage that he can go any way he pleases.

What I would like is that GRRM leads Jon down the road of AA reborn. And than, at the critical moment, to reveal what his heritage is and that it forbids him from being AA somehow, making a sudden twist in the plot (I love those ).

 

[juleska]

I'm not sure it's stated precisely how old any of the Brandon-Eddard-Benjen boys were during the rebellion, but I think they did say that Benjen was too young to go on campaign.

No they didn't tell us, but we can speculate with some degree of accuracy.

We learn at the beginning of AGOT that Ned is 35 (first chapter, Bran's POV). We know that Jon Snow, who was born sometime during Robert's Rebellion, is 14 at the beginning of AGOT. So we can surmise that Ned was 21 at the time of Jon's birth, and possibly 20 at the beginning of the Rebellion. We also know that Lyanna was 16 when she died, likely 15 when she got preggers and that Benjen is younger. So at the very least, during the tourney of Harrenhal Benjen was 14. But I actually think they would have allowed him to go with his big brothers at 14, so I believe he was younger, maybe 10 or 11 at Harrenhal and 11 or 12 at the beginning of the Rebellion.

My timeline may be off because I'm not sure how long the tourney at Harrenhal was before Robert's Rebellion. I think it's a year, but may be more.

 

[garion77]

It was something said in ADWD that stuck with me... I don't remember who the lady lords who were with Bolton was talking with... Maybe Davos about her relationship with Brandon Stark. She said he took her maiden head...

So we know Brandon didn't have the same morals as Ned. She said her and Brandon kept their relationship secret because he was going to marry Cat.

I never understood why GRRM felt he needed to tell us of the secret affair of Brandon? And why he always letting us know how wild he were...

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

It was something said in ADWD that stuck with me... I don't remember who the lady lords who were with Bolton was talking with... Maybe Davos about her relationship with Brandon Stark. She said he took her maiden head...

So we know Brandon didn't have the same morals as Ned. She said her and Brandon kept their relationship secret because he was going to marry Cat.

I never understood why GRRM felt he needed to tell us of the secret affair of Brandon? And why he always letting us know how wild he were...

Barbrey Ryswell, Lady Dustin is the lady in question and she was talking to Theon/Reek.