I don't believe Dragons can be warged...

[garion77]

A lot of people keep talking about Brand warging into one of the Dragons. If it was that easy, a warg would have taken a dragon a long time ago. Targayen have had dragon for thousands of years and no one ever took one warging. And I am sure it was plenty of powerful wargs during the Targayen rule...

And the horn is the only way to control the dragons. And only a true Targayen can blow the horn and live. You must be immune to fire to survive blowing the horn.

And what I remember, Dragons brought magic back into the world... Not the other way around... Spells didn't start working until dragons came back into the world. Has anyone ever wonder why? How powerful is the presence of Dragons to where three of them can make magic work again.

That alone prove it wasn't any other dragons in the world. So the sleeping dragon under Winterfell can't be true unless GRRM forgot his own statement.

I can't see any warg powerful enough to control a dragon. If there were, it would have been done when Aegon and his sisters were conquering the world.

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

The Targaryans never went beyond the Wall, if they had then they might have encountered skinchangers capable of threatening their hold over the dragons. I see no reason why a Dragon is more special than a Shadowcat, a Direwolf or a human, for it to be forbidden territory for a warg.

The Targaryans only had dragons for a couple centuries, remember Ageon's conquest is roughly 300 years ago in the time of Bran. The Valyrians had dragons for thousands of years and they never went beyond Dragonstone, let alone Brandon's Gift.

The story hasn't finished yet, and GRRM might decide to share an example of such a case where a dragon was successfully warged by some talented skinchanger, heck the guy attached to the tree might be one.

 

[garion77]

The Targaryans never went beyond the Wall, if they had then they might have encountered skinchangers capable of threatening their hold over the dragons. I see no reason why a Dragon is more special than a Shadowcat, a Direwolf or a human, for it to be forbidden territory for a warg.

The Targaryans only had dragons for a couple centuries, remember Ageon's conquest is roughly 300 years ago in the time of Bran. The Valyrians had dragons for thousands of years and they never went beyond Dragonstone, let alone Brandon's Gift.

The story hasn't finished yet, and GRRM might decide to share an example of such a case where a dragon was successfully warged by some talented skinchanger, heck the guy attached to the tree might be one.

I am sure there are skin changers beyond the wall... And I am sure they were more numerous doing the time of the Targaryens.

And how is Dragons different from shadow cats? Shadow cats don't bring magic that was lost for centuries back into the world with their birth... People not willing to give unlimited wealth for direwolves...

And nothing else can burn entire armies to dust...

Magic only work now because of Dragons. Everything before them was just slight of hands... Tricks... Three dragons brought magic back in the world... And you ask how they are different?

And most of the most powerful weapons in the books are based on Dragons... Valyrian steel (dragon steel), Dragon glass... The kingdoms were forged by Aegon and his Dragons... Without dragons, there is no Aegon the conqueror...

Even the kings of winter bent the knee to the dragons...

 

[Keebs411]

Qlso magic did exsist before the dragons hatched. Things were still going on out in the free cities. I just think it wasnt as powerful. Varys for example. If we are to take what he says for truth as far as when he was "cut". The last dragons ( that anyone knew of) i beleive were dead long before any one currently alive or was alive from the 1st agot book. Varys was cut by wat seems to have been a poss shadow binder, and it was wat has cause him to be completly against the dark arts and hate magic ( hell accepct dragons i think but nothing more). Not to say that u may be right perhaps dragons cant be warged but the magic argument i disagree with. Magic didnt vaish it simply dwindled down and has been re awakened and more powerful with the arrival of the 3 new dragons.

 

[garion77]

Qlso magic did exsist before the dragons hatched. Things were still going on out in the free cities. I just think it wasnt as powerful. Varys for example. If we are to take what he says for truth as far as when he was "cut". The last dragons ( that anyone knew of) i beleive were dead long before any one currently alive or was alive from the 1st agot book. Varys was cut by wat seems to have been a poss shadow binder, and it was wat has cause him to be completly against the dark arts and hate magic ( hell accepct dragons i think but nothing more). Not to say that u may be right perhaps dragons cant be warged but the magic argument i disagree with. Magic didnt vaish it simply dwindled down and has been re awakened and more powerful with the arrival of the 3 new dragons.

All was tricks like david copperfield... Even Vary pretended to have some magic but we find out he just had very good hiding places and spy holes... Even Mel admitted her spells were just trick of hands before Dragons. GRRM clearly stated Dragons brought magic back into the world. Without Dragon, there is no magic.

And the only way the maesters, the smartest guys on the planet realized the only way to kill dragons is by poisoning them...

And Mel whipped the crap out of the wargs who was attacking the wall... She forced them out the animals. And those wargs suppose to be very powerful. Do you think Mel is powerful enough to stand against a dragon? Hell no... I doubt magic even work against them. If it did, the Maesters of old would have figured it out.

How can magic or warging work against creatures that's the essence of magic itself?

 

[Tywin]

We have a lot of conjecture here.

1. We know that there are dragons in the world again.
2. We have a lot of evidence that magic is growing stronger in that world.

We don't know if #1 caused #2, if something else caused both of them (like the red comet in the sky), or if they are unrelated and just happen to be going on at the same time.

 

[garion77]

We have a lot of conjecture here.

1. We know that there are dragons in the world again.
2. We have a lot of evidence that magic is growing stronger in that world.

We don't know if #1 caused #2, if something else caused both of them (like the red comet in the sky), or if they are unrelated and just happen to be going on at the same time.

Remember... When the wildling saw the comet, she said it represented the return of dragons. Not the other way around. So the comet was the herald of dragons back into the world.

The dragons changed everything on the entire planet. Even across the ocean where they said spells that hasn't worked for centuries is now working.

Also remember, that warlocks and priest was butt of jokes until the dragons returned. Most lords knew they were powerless. That's why magic users was not taken serious and most of the people of Westeros looked at them like they looked at the Others. Old wives tales and fakes.

Tyros the red priest used tricks to make his sword burn with fire. The smith was complaining how he ruined so many good swords with his fake shows of magic. He was a drunk who could almost out drink Robert until Dragons returned... Now he can raise the dead...

One minute a drunkard and the next raising dead people. All because of dragons back in the world.

And someone said there wasn't any wargs south of the wall... Duh... What about the Starks. And for them to be wargs in their blood, it had to be other warg Starks to pass the gift down... And I am sure it was plenty of wargs when Aegon and his sisters conquered the north. All proved powerless against the dragons.

And even powerful wargs struggle to control normal animals... And those animals want to rip them apart sometimes. Imagine pissing off a Dragon like that... Which no human is powerful enough to control a dragon unless the dragon choose to be bonded.

That's Dany's problem now... She is trying to control three dragons alone. It's not going to happen. Drago is hers... She need someone to control the other two like Aagon needed his sisters. And even then only once the Targaryens released all three dragons on the battlefield at once. And that was called "The field of Fire"... Over four thousand men burned to ashes...

Controlling a bear and controlling a dragon is like fishing for sea bass and fishing for blue whales... They don't make fishing poles big enough to reel in a blue whale...

 

[Yog-Sothoth]

Nobody is denying the immense power a dragon represents, and how much greater it is than a Shadowcat, a direwolf or a human. Having said that, however, the latter three groups don't become obedient little pets the moment someone blows upon a silly little horn from a bygone empire. Indeed the mighty dragon is mastered by an object numerous times smaller than itself.

Now, we are theorizing the power of another tiny little object in the form of Bran, and his skills and powerlevel - if I can use DBZ nomenclature for a sec. - is said to be one of the greatest of all time. Therefore he's not your average warg, and might succeed where others have failed, including the skinchangers you believe lived south of the wall during Ageon's Conquest.

 

[garion77]

Nobody is denying the immense power a dragon represents, and how much greater it is than a Shadowcat, a direwolf or a human. Having said that, however, the latter three groups don't become obedient little pets the moment someone blows upon a silly little horn from a bygone empire. Indeed the mighty dragon is mastered by an object numerous times smaller than itself.

Now, we are theorizing the power of another tiny little object in the form of Bran, and his skills and powerlevel - if I can use DBZ nomenclature for a sec. - is said to be one of the greatest of all time. Therefore he's not your average warg, and might succeed where others have failed, including the skinchangers you believe lived south of the wall during Ageon's Conquest.

Bran is strong... But he is green as well... It wouldn't make any sense for Bran to learn in such a short time how to warg a dragon. Just plain unrealistic... It would be like Arya becoming a faceless man in a few months or even years.

Remember GRRM wanted to let I think nine years pass between AFFC and ADWD to allow the kids to master their arts. But the timeline and the events wouldn't let that happen. That was one of his excuses for the long delay of ADWD... He wanted to give Bran enough time to learn how to become a greenseer and Arya a faceless man ...

Unless he pulls a "Sword of Shanara" where a druid can pass all his knowledge to another druid, Bran will still be in training when the series end.

And warging a dragon I don't see happening. Finding the source of the Others power I can see. But can't see him wasting time learning to warg a dragon.

Dragons isn't going to defeat the Others. That's the Nights Watch job... That's their purpose in the series. The NW Lead by Jon Snow and the Wall...

And I believe the horn is like a dog whistle... It's useful when calling your own pitbull... But If you blow that whistle and someone's else pitbull show up, you are dead and that whistle will not save your butt...

And if someone blow that horn and not Dany, horn or no horn, they will be dragon meat...

 

[Ursa major]

Remember... When the wildling saw the comet, she said it represented the return of dragons. Not the other way around. So the comet was the herald of dragons back into the world.

The dragons changed everything on the entire planet. Even across the ocean where they said spells that hasn't worked for centuries is now working.

Also remember, that warlocks and priest was butt of jokes until the dragons returned. Most lords knew they were powerless. That's why magic users was not taken serious and most of the people of Westeros looked at them like they looked at the Others. Old wives tales and fakes.

Sorry, but Tywin was correct in the post of his that you quoted: we do not know for sure whether the return of dragons is the cause of the increase in magic or one of the consequences of magic's return. But what we've seen so far suggests the latter: for wasn't magic required to hatch the eggs? (In a world where life is cheap, it's hard to believe that those three stone eggs have not been the cause of a fair few deaths, as various sorcerers have tried to hatch them.) This isn't certain, because it may simply be that Dany was the first to do everything in the correct way.

As for the comet: if it's a real comet, then its appearance could not be caused by the hatching in Essos; if its a real comet, its appearance might be foreseen (and so be associated with prophecies); if its a real comet, it may be arriving with something else, something otherwise unseen, something that has returned the power of magic to the world.[/quote]

All because of dragons back in the world.

Again, this is not known for sure.

And someone said there wasn't any wargs south of the wall... Duh... What about the Starks. And for them to be wargs in their blood, it had to be other warg Starks to pass the gift down... And I am sure it was plenty of wargs when Aegon and his sisters conquered the north. All proved powerless against the dragons.

We could read this as implying that the dragons are not the source of the return of magic. As far as we know, Ned couldn't warg. We have no evidence that any of his siblings could. And yet Bran and Arya and Jon have demonstrated this power (and we suspect that Robb and Rickon have it, but the former wasn't really aware of it).

So why the change? One could argue that this, together with the appearance of direwolves south of the Wall, is because the power of the Others has returned. (Again, this may be the original cause of magic's return - and it preceded the dragons' hatching - or may simple be the first observed consequence.) What we have seen is that warging has never left the far north (beyond the Wall) but is now observed south of the Wall. I believe the cause, whatever it is, is associated with the far north - the Ice - and that the Fire magic may be returning in response (or in parallel).

 

[Needle]

I have little to contribute to this discussion really my 2 cents: I believe dragons can be warged! Whether they will be or not remains to be seen.

I do however have a comment about this:

Unless he pulls a "Sword of Shanara" where a druid can pass all his knowledge to another druid, Bran will still be in training when the series end.

Bran is a powerful warg and greenseer. No "Sword of Shanara" is needed here. All Bran needs to do is relax enough to slide into the weirwoods, just as he does Summer and Hodor. When he does he will know everything the trees have ever seen, for as long as they have existed, period. Past, present, and maybe even future, because the acorn, the tree, and the stump all live within.

 

[The Imp]

The Bear covered most of what I wanted to say. Let me add that we have no idea if anyone has ever warged into a dragon in the past. What we do know is that there is no living creature that a warg has NOT been able to warg into, and powerful wargs are able to control more than one creature at a time. We also know that Varamyr, the most powerful warg we have met (that knows his own powers) thinks Jon is a very powerful warg but doesn't know it (yet). We also know that when asked whether or not dragons can be warged into, GRRM evasively answered "we'll have to wait and see". While it's not a given that dragons can be controlled by wargs, we know that there is a horn that (supposedly) can control dragons, and it would make and interesting story line if one dragon was controlled by the horn and another by a warg, either in cooperation or contest.

 

[The Imp]

I have little to contribute to this discussion really my 2 cents: I believe dragons can be warged! Whether they will be or not remains to be seen.

I do however have a comment about this:

Bran is a powerful warg and greenseer. No "Sword of Shanara" is needed here. All Bran needs to do is relax enough to slide into the weirwoods, just as he does Summer and Hodor. When he does he will know everything the trees have ever seen, for as long as they have existed, period. Past, present, and maybe even future, because the acorn, the tree, and the stump all live within.

just so

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

The last dragons ( that anyone knew of) i beleive were dead long before any one currently alive or was alive from the 1st agot book.

except maybe the three eyed crow that is teaching Bran, if you can cound him as a live.

I think it is speculation weather or not Magic returned due to dragons or vice versa, or had nothing to do with it. I tend towards the theory that magic was coming back first, which allowed the stark children to be able to Warg, and the white walkers to come back, and the dragons to be born, but it's really just heresay.

I think we are going to see Bran controlling a dragon.

 

[Keebs411]

except maybe the three eyed crow that is teaching Bran, if you can cound him as a live.

This gave me a crackpot theory idea.... completly nuts but i dig it! If we all recall the moment bran warga into a raven and senses someone already there. Hes told that it was someone else who basically did a final warg upon their last days and became that animal. Similar to varymar. Before he died he knew what ever he warged into would be his last and he would live, become that animal and soon lose himself inaide it fully becoming the animal and losing memory of what he once was in time.

What is to happen with blood raven when bran takes over? He has outlived his human body he relies on the trees but its belived to be able to also inhabit the ravens around there. Perhaps he inhabits even the lord comanders raven at times. I beleive he has warging ability and is not restricked to the trees. If this is true and his days as being the 3 eyed crow are numbered and he can warg..... i could see him poss just perminatly becoming part of the great tree forest network oooor perhaps if dany was close enough by HE could perminatly warg into a dragon. He is a targ after all. What targ wouldnt want to live out an afterlife as a dragon?!

Like i said crazy idea but a fun twist to think of

 

[Brian G Turner]

I've got to admit, I've not been expecting anyone to warg with a dragon, least of all Bran. Perhaps being "magical" creatures they are an exception, as it tends to be northerners who warg, and Targs don't appear to have used dragons this way.

We've seen repeated mention of the dragon having three heads - perhaps simply meaning three dragons - but my money's still on Dany, Jon, and Tyrion as being three people who will ride a dragon each. Am expecting some dramatic scenes of Dany and Jon laying waste to hordes of wights with their fiery mounts.

However, that's a general expectation, and I've never been one for being able to predict what GRRM will do next - especially as I'm prone to forget the intricate details!

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

oooor perhaps if dany was close enough by HE could perminatly warg into a dragon. He is a targ after all. What targ wouldnt want to live out an afterlife as a dragon?!

I like it!

 

[D.A. Madigan]

Dragons can be warged... but shouldn't be. If there was ever a skin that no human would ever want to change back from...

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Maybe that goes along with what I, Brian said. It would be like a retirement for the soul of a Warg. Finding a nice dragon somewhere to settle down and let go of your human body.

 

[C Of K]

Ive always considered the very presence of the direwolves to be magic, and since they were born well before the Dany's dragons hatched... I suppose, there is no real confirmation that the wolves were sent by gods, but I guess there is no confirmation that Thoros is able to raise the dead by summoning the power of a god either. No one would doubt that he's able to work magic, though.

Dragons can be warged... but shouldn't be.

I find it very telling that GRRM would choose to make this point about flying creatures in general. I had to ask myself, how does it harm the story, or the direction the story is headed in, if all wargs were accustomed to warging into ravens or eagles or any other bird. I can't think of a single reason why GRRM would make an issue out of that. Dragons though. They're a different story. I'm inclined to agree with the quote above.