Robert E. Howard's Conan and racism

[nomadman]

interesting reply, especially as it forwards an opinion that goes against the majority of replies to this thread, that readers should get past/dismiss the racism.

are you still able to enjoy Conan stories yourself? if so, how do you personally deal with the racism and your own feelings of discomfort as you encounter them?

Yes, on the whole, I'm able to enjoy the Conan stories firstly because I rarely find the racist elements to intrude on the core of the story and secondly because I generally have a pretty thick skin to such things.

Howard was partly a product of his times but mostly his own man, and the views he held were his own. Given that he was not an ignorant, nor especially cloistered individual, I don't think such things should be dismissed; but then neither do I think they should be overblown or take precedence over Howard's other, admirable, qualities.

He was what he was, a flawed and complex individual, and I think I can take him as he stands, warts and all.

 

[nomadman]

Absolutely, if you can't read things that aren't politically correct, you truely can't read anything. If someone writes with the fear of offending someone else, there is no honesty in the writing. If I use the expression "walking on eggs," am I offending chicken lovers or egg farmers or even chickens themselves? People need to develope a thicker skin. Political correctness in writing is dishonest writing. And worse yet, as Howard wrote Fantasy, it is only up to the reader to believe that the dark skinned people in his fantasy world actually represent a group of people in the real world. I myself would choose to believe that this stuff took place somewhere that doesn't really exist outside the mind.

But then aren't you also guilty of simply ignoring those aspects of a story which are distasteful to you?

The races in Howard's Conan tales were clearly based on real peoples and the world of the Hyborian Age was not meant simply as a vague, imaginary fantasy land, but as a living, breathing representation of our own ancient world, albeit a somewhat altered version. To deny it that quality is to deny the very thing which makes it so compelling in the first place.

I have no problem reading works of an earlier time which may be considered "politically incorrect" in today's day and age, but I'm also willing to accept them as they are, without conveniently filtering out the less tasteful parts to suit my mindset.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Yes, on the whole, I'm able to enjoy the Conan stories firstly because I rarely find the racist elements to intrude on the core of the story and secondly because I generally have a pretty thick skin to such things.

Howard was partly a product of his times but mostly his own man, and the views he held were his own. Given that he was not an ignorant, nor especially cloistered individual, I don't think such things should be dismissed; but then neither do I think they should be overblown or take precedence over Howard's other, admirable, qualities.

He was what he was, a flawed and complex individual, and I think I can take him as he stands, warts and all.

i think this is where i'm headed on the topic, and will definitely give the stories another go. downloaded red nails already.

 

[JoanDrake]

Bearing in mind when they were written I don't really find them racist. As others have said, politically incorrect maybe, but only reading them now, in their day they wouldn't even have been considered politically incorrect. I find Burroughs worse for racism but then he was 25 years older than REH so again, you have to make allowances for the times.

I don't pretend to be as old as Robert E. Howard would have been but, I've been around for a while. During my time on Earth I've seen Negroes become Black, then Afro-American, then African- American. Orientals became Asian-Americans. Mexicans became Hispanics. Cultures change. People try change their image in an attempt to make their cultures grow and evolve. I fully believe that a day will come when cultures and races blend to the point that the differentiation of today will look as crude and wrong to the future human as writing of the last two centuries looks to the current human. It may take 500 years but the concepts of racial and ethnic purity are in violation of the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Cultures and races will atropy. That is something that will happen and slowly is happening. Bottom line: things were different when Howard wrote. Take into account the context of his times and enjoy the writing. I try to do this with everything I read. And really, most of what we read here is Science Fiction and Fantasy. Isn't context and suspension of disbelief what it's all about?

To be frank, you'll find that kind of thing in just about any pulp writer of the time. Not condoning or justifying, just recognize that it's part of the era. If you can't separate that out, you should probably avoid pulp writers almost entirely. For a simple comparison of how much less racist Howard's writing is compared to some contemporaries, read a few Doc Savage, The Shadow, The Spider, and H. P. Lovecraft pieces.

Howard wrote in the 1930's and in that decade all of the Great German Universities were run by the Nazis....Racism was more than just accepted, it was almost something of an academic fashion at the time. Strangely, one source of some opposition to this came from some Institutions in America, which had taught those ideas themselves to the Germans in the 1910's (whence they were incorporated into "Mein Kampf") but had since moved beyond them

 

[steve12553]

After reading all the posts and thinking about it for a while, I'd like to know what the consensus is as far as what we should do about this. What is the point of thi thread? Should we stop reading these books? Should we ban them? Should we ban all books that don't think like we do? How many people out there base their lifestyles on Fantasy books? Do you model yourself after Conan or anyone else similar?

I'm just having a little trouble arguing this thread because I've lost the point. I've felt that I ought to read a certain amount of things that I don't agree with just so it will make me think.

 

[JoanDrake]

After reading all the posts and thinking about it for a while, I'd like to know what the consensus is as far as what we should do about this. What is the point of thi thread? Should we stop reading these books? Should we ban them? Should we ban all books that don't think like we do? How many people out there base their lifestyles on Fantasy books? Do you model yourself after Conan or anyone else similar?

I'm just having a little trouble arguing this thread because I've lost the point. I've felt that I ought to read a certain amount of things that I don't agree with just so it will make me think.

I think the point of this thread is that we should read books in their historical context. It's a simple thing but easy to forget, and no, not many people base their lives on Fantasy books but I know quite a few who have thought that books like Dune or Lord of the Rings had lessons they found important in their lives.

It's also VERY important for us as authors. If we try to write like the 'cleaned up' version of Howard that is presented by the 'pastisches' mainly done by L. Sprague De Camp et al we might succeed based on our talent...If we want our main influence to be the 'real' Howard in his original form we are likely to be routed to the "racist nut" pile, and no agent in his right mind will bother with us ever again. Now, as I said, Howard most definitely WASN'T a racist. He was actually quite enlightened FOR HIS TIME, but he couldn't even get in the front door of most publishing cos. today.

 

[Extollager]

After reading all the posts and thinking about it for a while, I'd like to know what the consensus is as far as what we should do about this. What is the point of thi thread? Should we stop reading these books? Should we ban them? Should we ban all books that don't think like we do? How many people out there base their lifestyles on Fantasy books? Do you model yourself after Conan or anyone else similar?

I'm just having a little trouble arguing this thread because I've lost the point. I've felt that I ought to read a certain amount of things that I don't agree with just so it will make me think.

I think the thread is an open one, where people can talk about Howard and the issue of racism as it relates (or even if it relates, as I believe it does) to his life and writings. It's an open-ended conversation. Eventually it will dribble away, and eventually it might be revived.

I have no doubt that Howard would be considered a racist according to a common idea of what racism is, which I will attempt to put in my own words as follows: Granted visible racial differences, racism continues further to assumethat psychological and intellectual characteristics are racially inherited. No one will call you a racist for noticing that persons of exclusively indigenous African ancestry have darker pigmentation than persons of indigenous Icelandic ancestry, but in common discourse you will probably be called a racist if you say that persons of southern European ancestry are more emotional than persons of northern European ancestry especially if you say this is because of their genes or "blood" as a factor distinct from purely cultural factors.

My own take on the matter, as a reader of literature, is that often the most interesting thing as regards "racial" or "racist" ideas in an author is to see what he or she does with them. When Shakespeare wants to tell a story about passionate young lovers he sets it in Italy, not Holland... and so on. But oh, what he does with the stereotype! Whether Howard's use of the racial stereotypes of his day -- particularly those that were common currency in pulp writing -- is interesting and if so, how, seems a worthy topic for inquiry. My take here is that Howard probably believed the stereotypes -- they were, if I am not mistaken, ingrained in at least the popular science if his day -- and certainly that he deployed them incessantly in his writing. I'm not condoning what he did, but it seems worth commenting on if one is interested in reading him reflectively. (However, I think that a difference between REH and HPL, in many cases, is that you're not "supposed to" read REH reflectively. You are supposed to be carried away, as you are when you read Connell's "Most Dangerous Game," etc. If you probe the writing, it will be revealed, often, as rife with problems of plausibility, logic, etc., all the more if you consider more than one Conan story at a time, because so they are blatantly repetitive.)

 

[Connavar]

The way writers use stereotype is interesting like Shakespeare and Italy, Howard and pulp stereotypes of blacks,asians but my problem is that it's unfair to single out Howard because he is popular,fantasy legend and he is Texan.... Some afro-Americans have called me an ignorant traitor in comics forum because how can I be Black and admire Howard, love his stories. mistaking stereotype, political incorrect ness for racism.

That is taking it too far and like dismissing any writer before 1900 for his portrayal of women,people of color.

 

[JDU802]

I cannot speak to the specifics of any of his other work than Conan and know nothing about the man's personal beliefs,. However, in In reading the Conan stories I certainly am noticing some pretty blatant racist stereotypes that I was never aware of while reading the comics. I am not sure if they were there in the comics and I just didn't notice them due to my age.

Two lines from The Scarlet Citadel

'"Tsotha will never know!" laughed the black fiendishly'

I don't know how others referred to black people in their fiction of the 30's, but this just sounds wrong to me now.

Tell me this isn't pretty blatant
"Not a sound came from the thick blubbery lips that flew wide in fleeting agony"

 

[BAYLOR]

I cannot speak to the specifics of any of his other work than Conan and know nothing about the man's personal beliefs,. However, in In reading the Conan stories I certainly am noticing some pretty blatant racist stereotypes that I was never aware of while reading the comics. I am not sure if they were there in the comics and I just didn't notice them due to my age.

Two lines from The Scarlet Citadel

'"Tsotha will never know!" laughed the black fiendishly'

I don't know how others referred to black people in their fiction of the 30's, but this just sounds wrong to me now.

Tell me this isn't pretty blatant
"Not a sound came from the thick blubbery lips that flew wide in fleeting agony"

When you read any old literature, you have to take into account the fact these writers were more offend then not , products of the societies and time that they lived in. Robert E. Howard was a man his time with the prejudices of his time and you'll find many of the writers of that era were much the same way.

 

[Overread]

Also sometimes you can read into things without realising it. For example "the black" is not a bad term if you've a group of people talking who might not be of the same race/colour and who are also not strongly defined with names in the narrative (note one might be identified by a name, but if that is only once an author might pick on a specific feature - colour, race, creed, odd feature, job, role etc.. - instead of using the name as the reader might well have a stronger connection to "What" the character is as opposed to whom by name.

I also like to read fantasy books and try to not think of them as a product of their time of writing nor of the author; but rather as a product of that fantasy world in itself - even if its supposed to be based on the real world at some point in time. Ergo I don't mind racist characters - racism is perfectly fine and indeed one would consider it somewhat abnormal to have no racism/specisim/hate of any kind in a book. I don't want all my fantasy to just ape modern day western idealised social structures and concepts.

 

[Vince W]

Also sometimes you can read into things without realising it. For example "the black" is not a bad term if you've a group of people talking who might not be of the same race/colour and who are also not strongly defined with names in the narrative (note one might be identified by a name, but if that is only once an author might pick on a specific feature - colour, race, creed, odd feature, job, role etc.. - instead of using the name as the reader might well have a stronger connection to "What" the character is as opposed to whom by name.

I also like to read fantasy books and try to not think of them as a product of their time of writing nor of the author; but rather as a product of that fantasy world in itself - even if its supposed to be based on the real world at some point in time. Ergo I don't mind racist characters - racism is perfectly fine and indeed one would consider it somewhat abnormal to have no racism/specisim/hate of any kind in a book. I don't want all my fantasy to just ape modern day western idealised social structures and concepts.

While Howard was no doubt a racist (Lovecraft was worse), I think Conan's world was pretty fair. If you didn't like how someone treated you, you were perfectly within your rights to pick up a sword and alter their viewpoint for them. Works well in fictional Hyboria, not in reality, but it is meant to be fantasy.

 

[SilentRoamer]

I tend to separate the beliefs of the author from their works as long as it doesn't overtly come through in their writing to the point that it intrudes on me reading the book.

I have never read any Howard but a comparable author might be Orson Scott Card - I really enjoy his work, Enders Game and Speaker for the Dead were fantastic, but I abhor his views on gay marriage. If his work pushed these views, I doubt I would enjoy it.

On a side note I was so surprised at these views especially considering the empathy and understanding of human emotion that he showed in Speaker.

If I am reading something from a particular time and place I want it to reflect that time and place. Sometimes Fantasy is Fantasy in tech level only and most of the characters have a modern sensibility, no sexism, no racism, no tribalism - for me no realism. @Overread Said it very well two posts back.

 

[BAYLOR]

I tend to separate the beliefs of the author from their works as long as it doesn't overtly come through in their writing to the point that it intrudes on me reading the book.

I have never read any Howard but a comparable author might be Orson Scott Card - I really enjoy his work, Enders Game and Speaker for the Dead were fantastic, but I abhor his views on gay marriage. If his work pushed these views, I doubt I would enjoy it.

On a side note I was so surprised at these views especially considering the empathy and understanding of human emotion that he showed in Speaker.

If I am reading something from a particular time and place I want it to reflect that time and place. Sometimes Fantasy is Fantasy in tech level only and most of the characters have a modern sensibility, no sexism, no racism, no tribalism - for me no realism. @Overread Said it very well two posts back.

I think you would like his stuff. Conan The Hour of the Dragon is his one Conan novel light tales, It's a excellent read and considered to be one the best novel ever written and is as good place start as any, I would recommend his King Kull stories ,Bran Mac Morn and Solomon Kane stories.

 

[Overread]

@SilentRoamer - I agree I also find it a little jarring when there's a fantasy setting and I get that grating feeling that everyone is just modern day people in another world and setting and such. It feels false or shallow to me, not because I expect fantasy worlds to be worse, or better, but because I expect there to be differences. I expect to see racism and rivalry; to have inequalities.

I also dislike it when the lead character/faction is pushing for modern style rights through the whole adventure/series. By this I mean that you can start ticking things off the list - human rights, gay marriage, equality for all, education, national health etc.... Ergo once I start to see all those things appearing all at once - its got to have a darn good reason behind it all to not just feel a bit hollow.


I guess in my view one of the rich parts of fantasy is leaving our world and learning about another. Experiencing that other world or age or time.

 

[SilentRoamer]

@Overread I think Fantasy suffers from a modern morality veneer more than SF because we can extrapolate forward in time and not much needs to change in terms of our value systems (I think in all likelihood our moral structures and values will likely be completely different in a few hundred years in ways we can't guess at now) so it's easier to accept this because we don't have to contradict a known truth about the past but only a potential truth about the future.

I suppose the SF version of this is the aliens - often bipedal and basically the same value system as humans. So they're just blue humans. I wrote a short about a first contact race, uber friendly and gave humanity some very nice peaceful tech, believe in all sentient life having equal value and spread this throughout the galaxy. They're a cephalopod/fish hybrid who also eat their own non sentient babies live (like spawn) as part of a cultural tradition dating back to previous medical necessity in their primitive past. I was inspired by the Overlords but instead of a physical revulsion I wanted a moral one. I thought baby eating was as bad is it could get.

To pull this back on topic I haven't read any Howard (or Lovecraft) and I can't think of any other authors who I have read who were overtly racist, although I often know little about the authors I read so any racism on part of the author would need to be implied through the page for me to know.

I would definitely still read Howard knowing he was an overt racist, although if that started coming through the book too much and I felt like someone else political or value agenda was being shoved down my throat then I would tire fast. It's just moral philosophizing of a different kind and I read fantasy for fun and escapism not to be hammered with a point, that's not to say I don't mind some moral difficulty, but I want it to ask me moral questions, not give me moral answers. An example would be Thomas Covenant - I find the morality through the series to be very challenging in all sorts of ways.

Wow sorry for the wall of text guys

 

[SilentRoamer]

I think you would like his stuff. Conan The Hour of the Dragon is his one Conan novel light tales, It's a excellent read and considered to be one the best novel ever written and is as good place start as any, I would recommend his King Kull stories ,Bran Mac Morn and Solomon Kane stories.

I have a Conan Chronicles by Robert Jordan but no Howard ones. I might look up Hour of the Dragon.

Thanks

 

[Vince W]

The thing about Howard, and the people of his day, the racism was so casual. Even if he liked a black person, he still call them terrible things and both parties would have accepted this as normal.

I have a theory about Howard that I don't think would be too popular amongst his more rabid fans, but if you look at his life and writing it could be plausible. I won't go further than that as I'm no Howard scholar.

 

[Overread]

I often note that racism can be casually divided into two kinds. Casual and hostile.

Casual is what is said in private or between those of a like background/mind. It's often born more of ignorance than real hate (though can be easily fuelled by politicians/newspapers); and often slips into that same line of insults such as when you curse the gods of bin-bags when the bag rips etc... Ergo its casual, nothing deeply seated and often more born of the fact that whatever the target race/group is, they are often not represented much (if at all) locally.

Hostile is where its a far more deep seated hate of another group, where simple exposure and positive reinforcement (ergo breaking down the ignorance barriers) would still not resolve the matter (or at least dull the edge/make one mindful of what thoughts one said and to whom). These are the ones who won't mind their manners in company; who might well seek out means to be overtly and deliberately hostile to others etc...

 

[BigBadBob141]

I don't think Howard is any more racist then most writers of his era.
Less so then some.
As for that passage quoted about the black woman entering the hut.
I can't see a trace of racism there.
If you are sensitive to this sort of thing, either stop reading writers of the past or develops a thicker skin.
I take it you won't be reading "Uncle Tom's Cabin" or "Huckleberry Finn".
To say nothing of Agatha Christe's "Ten Little N****r Boys" or Joseph Conrad's "The N***r Of The Narcissus".
Remember Howard was writing for the pulp magazines, it's not high literature, you must make some allowance for style and the period it was written in!
And before anyone takes it into their heads that I'm racist.
I wish to point out that I think my mother did a good job teaching me not to be one.
And I really, really hate the "N" word, I never use it in speech.
But now and then I come across it in something I'm reading.
The reason I don't all up in arms about is because it usually fits into the context of the story I am reading.