Theological Dispute (1200 words)

[Brian G Turner]

TJ, I presume you've read about the iconoclastic controversy in Byzantium around the 8th-9th centuries?

So far as I understand it, the basic argument is that any image of divinity becomes itself an object of worship, rather than the divinity. I believe it's rooted in the story of the golden calf in the Old Testament, and still adhered to within Islam.

Point being, I don't think you can escape a POV thoughts from Chais because if iconoclasm is an established idea, then it already exists as a faction, and therefore sympathies will be polarised one way or another - especially according to Chais' background and plot arc.

If it *is* a new idea, then it's going to shock the audience, and therefore create a reaction.

That's a fairly minor point, but I would expect the POV to be carried. Perhaps she's tired of the general arguments? Perhaps you could summarise a couple of the pointers in her thoughts, and have the characters strike their strongest dialogue either side?

At the moment you simply show the reactions of a couple of clergy, but I think this makes the character too passive - unless there's a reason why she is an observer to this in the first place to add her own perspective.

For example, I did personally find this part of the exchange a little weak and perhaps better summarise in a POV:

“It is an implied representation of the All-High as Conqueror of the Deceiver.”

“Surely not. It is, rather, a true representation of the Advocate himself, showing his defeat of those enemies whom he did face in life, with those enemies, themselves aspects of the Deceiver, represented in allegory.”

“The Blessed Advocate bore within him the fluid of the divine, so to represent him in any barren image is to demonstrate contempt for that divinity.”

“We each bear within our souls some minute particle of that holy fluid which flows from the All-High, yet the Work enjoins us to remember the faces of our kin, lest we forget ourselves, and to carry their images with us always.”

Because it seems to lack the passion that both opposing characters otherwise nicely project.

I also thought some of the character dialogue attributions towards the end could be tightened up. I presume it is Todvulf who is still speaking until implicitly stated otherwise? Simply that I did have to slow my reading to double-check here, as a potential warning. Perhaps it would be better to put "Todvulf’s scowl grew darker. He limped to the marble steps, then mounted to the landing" to start his attribution, rather than start a new paragraph after it?

The use of the word "cartouche" threw me a little as I associate more with a specific graphic for a royal name, as in Ancient Egypt. Just a pointer.

However, overall, a well written piece, but I think if you bring in the character a little more, you can really add a layer of polish to the piece. Just my personal opinion, though.

 

[The Judge]

Thanks, Brian. Those points you've raised are helpful.

I had a read around the basics of aniconism, which raised the Byzantine and Islamic prohibitions, but I didn't go into them in depth as it is a side issue here, really. These won't be new thoughts to the clergy of both nationalities, certainly, but although Chais herself wouldn't have heard the arguments before, she wouldn't be at all interested in the theology. However, I've had an idea about a couple of lines which link into allmywire's thoughts about action, which would allow Chais to show her apprehension since Todvulf's antagonism towards her is so evident (there's a not-very-veiled threat directed at her and her mother later on), which might be enough to ground the POV again.

Yes, "cartouche" worried me, and I've spent hours looking for a better word, without success. A cartouche is actually the thing on maps enclosing the title and other bits -- one reason it appealed -- where it can be any shape. It's also used in heraldry for women and the clergy, though there it's actually an oval which is a bummer. I've not actually found a word for a six-sided figure apart from hexagon, which I can't bring myself to use, and the German** for it is sechseck which I can't get my tongue around! A lozenge, which I also considered, is a diamond on one point (and sounds too much like a cough sweet... ) and shield isn't aggressive enough. If anyone has any better ideas, I'd love to hear them. Meanwhile, I'll keep looking.

Thanks again.


** the church is T'densk in origin, which is my version of German

 

[Ursa major]

You could always use (die, eine) Kartusche, the German for cartouche.

 

[HareBrain]

As I understand it, if you concentrate on the medallions rather than the outside edge of the cartouche, they can be joined by lines to make a typographical "double dagger".

According to wikipedia, the proper name for this double dagger shape is "deisis", which, according to this page on (by bizarre coincidence) Byzantine religion icons, comes from a Greek word meaning "prayer". How about that?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I'll throw in a thought here - I have a pretty good vocabularly and wasn't thrown out by anything here, or in your previous 3000th post. I know what a cartouche is, enough to get a picture of it - maybe not the one intended, but one I was happy with - in my head.
Deisis I'd have no idea. Lozenge is the wrong shape altogether. Why complicate things? Do you want people to have to stop reading and look up the dictionary or google?

polygon is a generic term for a many sided shape, but I'm sure you've come across that one.

 

[HareBrain]

Why complicate things? Do you want people to have to stop reading and look up the dictionary or google?

Whatever it's called, it would (I assume) be described the first time it appears, so there wouldn't be any need to look up anything. I wouldn't know what "deisis" meant either; I'd just think it sounded religious.

"Cartouche" didn't bother me at all, though it does have some possibly unhelpful associations, such as ancient Egypt and engraved snuff-boxes on Bargain Hunt.

 

[The Judge]

Oooh! That double dagger is, indeed, what I've been calling the sign of the inner cartouche -- one vertical line with two horizontal lines crossing it. That is definitely useful. And I like deisis as a word, as it definitely sounds religious-like.

So far, though, it's the outer shape which has been the focus, even though the inner symbol is also used as a sign as a blessing etc by the clergy. I might have to re-think that and make the inner the important part. Back to the drawing board.

Kartusche. I'll definitely keep that in mind, too, as it's got an aggressive feel about it with the "K".

Thanks for all the help!

 

[David Evil Overlord]

Your Honour, would you like me to post a couple of photos of the frescoes of Pompeii?

 

[The Judge]

Have you got someone hitting them with a walking stick...?

No, it's fine, thanks. I've been looking at a lot of frescoes on line, and quickly researched the various techniques. I know they develop cracks, but I'm not sure whether the paint would flake off exactly as I have it, especially as it's gold leaf which would have been applied a secco.

But speaking of photos, in case anyone's interested, this is the courtyard on which mine is based (from the castle of Fenis, in Italy):

 

[Gary Compton]

Very nice.

Your not going to burst out of the gates in your party frock and sing "Bring me Sunshine," with two silly looking comedians doing a sill dance behind you (me and Ursa) - are you?

 

[The Judge]

I figure it would be more like me coming down the steps singing Smoke gets in your eyes, and ending up in your hob-nailed boots in my evening gown...

 

[Gary Compton]

You know me so well

 

[Bowler1]

Like others members, the opening argument on religion was hard for me to get through, but once the character tension built up I was engaged a lot more. The ending was nice having both drama and humour. I know you have opted not to have any single POV in this section and it works without it, but having some internal thoughts on the build-up could have helped lighten the earlier parts – or at least I think so. The religious argument does get me thinking of sub-plot issues, so yes I’m interested enough to read on. That being the case, I’d say job done, Judge.

I think you should just stick to the second line of the song this week – ‘Bring me rain.’

 

[Brian G Turner]

I've had an idea about a couple of lines which link into allmywire's thoughts about action, which would allow Chais to show her apprehension since Todvulf's antagonism towards her is so evident

That sounds like a good idea.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

Have you got someone hitting them with a walking stick...?

Alas, no. They tend to frown on that sort of thing at historical sites.

 

[Boneman]

Ah, another thousandth... congratulations on another limestone. (That's a cross between a milestone and a landmark.)

Okay, let's set out my stall right away: I'm an incredibly intolerant person when someone is trying to convince me of the rightness of 'their' religion - I point-blank refuse to listen (which means I'm going to miss the real thing when it comes along!). But I followed this argument fairly well, although there was a tendency to skim, as it went along, as I thought it went on too long. here's the thing: I know you're not trying to use the argument to convince anyone of the rights or wrongs of the religions under discussion, but it felt as though you were... I know it's there to advance the characters and story; to show us their particular beliefs/intolerances, and how their ruling influence affects people, so the one thing I'd maybe do, is give us more of how they say what they do. They've held their beliefs all their lives (I assume), so maybe the argument would be shorter and slightly more vitriolic, each 300% convinced of their own rightness.

Because Chaos - sorry Chais - (I blame HB and his you-cannot-be-Seriuz...) is the focus to begin with, (and I accept what you say about not giving her any thoughts) and she's seen the fresco loads of times before, and presumably this has been mentioned previously? It's only the delegation that haven't seen it before, and I'd ask how important are they going to be in Chais' story? (Incidentally, how do you handle the possessive of Chais? Chais's?) Because you've given them a fairly large space to argue their religions, is it going to be relevant to Chais? Will there be something about the deity, or his Advocate that adds to her story (other than her father's situation)? Because, if not, this scene could have an incredible impact (no pun intended) if:

“A lie,” said Todvulf. “A blasphemy.”

And he marches up to the blasphemy and whacks it. He knows the blasphemy is there, he's heard all about it, so why would he waste time arguing? He's probably worked himself up to a fever-pitch knowing he's going to have to view the damned thing, he'd act on it straight away. Insult any religion in front of its most fervent believers and the reaction will be instantaneous, especially the type of religion you're depicting here... They won't spend a while arguing, they'll just act, because they know they're right!

My sixpennyworth...

 

[Vertigo]

Cngratulations on the 4000! I'm a bit late to the party and there's not much I can contribute beyond what's been said already. I found it emminently readable (very humbling really!) and had no problems with the POV.

There are just two things that pulled me up:

The use of the word halt. This is really very minor and probably my problem! I do know (I think!) exactly what you are saying (and I suspect a gibe at Todvulth as well) it's just that in my experience halt is almost never used in that sense nowadays, and this made me stumble. Might also be due to the fact that I don't read much fantasy or historical fiction. If I did I might have come across this usage more often.

The real problem I had though was the breaking of the fresco. No problem with the actual breaking of it, but you describe it as a 'masterpiece' and it seems to be a work of great importance and yet there is almost no reponse to the actual breaking other than the clever but almost casual, gibe at Todvulf. I would expect the accidental breaking of a religious masterpiece to have evoked a rather stonger response.

 

[stephen.samuels]

I was really impressed, given the subject matter, this is a very well written piece. I do feel that the commas disturbed the rhythm somewhat, but then who am I to talk! I am sure you will get this right.

Personally I like this level of detail in a fantasy world, the depth it adds is something which all worlds should have, well done!

 

[The Judge]

Thanks, everyone -- all good points again.

Yes, BM, the religion and the Delegation itself are very important to Chais, even though this particular issue isn't. The difficulty with him deliberately destroying the fresco, as opposed to hitting out in anger, is that would bring the party to an immediate end, and I need the banquet and him at it. I'll definitely have to bring more of Chais's (that's how) thoughts in earlier, though, as Bowler says. I'll also have to make it clearer that Annzgar himself is all very laid back about the issue -- he's actually not all that bothered, he's just arguing to irritate Todvulf.

I did wonder if "halt" would cause problems, Vertigo, but went with it anyway. You'll just have to read more fantasy! Good catch about the lack of reactions -- I've just realised I've ignored the dismay another character will feel in the next chapter. He's the one who thinks it is a masterpiece, so his scene will have to be changed to reflect that. The main characters like Chais and her mother actually won't be that concerned, though, not least as the fresco is only about twelve or so years old so the artist could simply be brought back to repaint it.

Thanks again.

 

[Ursa major]

...congratulations on another limestone. (That's a cross between a milestone and a landmark.)

And there was I, thinking a limestone was something one chalked up.

*sighs*