Significance of Lady - Some spoilers for ASOS and ADWD

[joepan29]

Sonething has got to give with Meera, Hodor, and Summer. Are they just going to hang around with Bran and be companions? Or are they going to have a quest, perhaps to help out Sansa, Arya and Rickon (and maybe Jon) retake Winterfell or defeat the Others? Maybe they need to make the long journey to inform everyone about Bran and how to use the tree network. They don't seem to be Dany supporters, but who knows. Depends how these story lines come together.

I had all but forgotten about Hodor and the Reeds. I wonder if Hodor accompanies them with Bran "driving." Also, and I don't know if/how it relates, but what happened to Old Nan?

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I had all but forgotten about Hodor and the Reeds. I wonder if Hodor accompanies them with Bran "driving." Also, and I don't know if/how it relates, but what happened to Old Nan?

Last thing I know she was among the captives being held at the Dreadfort. Theon stated she is most likely dead, but it hasn't been confirmed.

 

[The Imp]

I hate to be a wet blanket, but there's the matter of Jojen's green dream which showwed bran dead.

 

[juleska]

Well he said himself that his dreams are not always interpreted accurately. He saw Bran dead, and many people believe Bran is dead since his death was faked by Theon.

 

[The Imp]

Well he said himself that his dreams are not always interpreted accurately. He saw Bran dead, and many people believe Bran is dead since his death was faked by Theon.

I can hear Jojen's voice echoing in my head, saying "the greeen dreams never lie". It (Jojen's vision of Bran dead) makes me worry about Bran.

 

[juleska]

I can hear Jojen's voice echoing in my head, saying "the greeen dreams never lie". It (Jojen's vision of Bran dead) makes me worry about Bran.

Actually I think there's a way for both of us to be right. I'm re-reading ADWD now and I just passed the chapter where Bran & Co. finally made it to the cave. The first thing he asks the three-eyed crow is can he make him walk again. The crow answers no, that this is beyond his powers, and Bran begins to cry, thinking "We've come so far." The last thing the crow tells him in that chapter is that he will never walk again, but he will fly.

I think most of us are fairly certain that Bran is communicating to Jon through Mormont's raven by the end of ADWD, when the raven calls out his full name. If he is, and if Bran the Boy dies, he may live on through both Summer and the Raven. It's not really much different than becoming a tree. In fact I'd say it's better. At least he would have mobility and freedom.

 

[Eulalia]

I thought the dream about "Bran" being a dream about the miller's sons being flayed. Is that possible? It's been a while.

 

[juleska]

Right, that's what I think. He "saw Bran dead" and that's what the people of Winterfell saw as well. A boy around the size of Bran headless in Bran's clothes.

 

[Needle]

I thought the dream about "Bran" being a dream about the miller's sons being flayed. Is that possible? It's been a while.

I think this the case. The millers boy was meant to appear as Bran and he did, even to Jojen. The green dreams are always true but just like any prophesy not as direct as they seem. After all Alebelly and the others did not literally drown in the sea but the dream still held true. Most everyone in the world believes Bran is dead.

 

[ThePro]

I'd say that the green dreams are akin to the things the red priests see in the flames. Always accurate, but subject to misinterpretation. So yeah, what Eualia and Needle said. Jojen saw what he saw, but probably misunderstood what it meant. He's wise and all, but still a kid.

As for Sansa, I've actually felt like she was the most Tully and least Stark of the children, in looks and demeanor. She was once, before a lot of things happened, more like her aunt than anyone in her family. That's just what I get from her.

But, after reading through this thread I see the argument for her being the heir to Winterfell - but...

When Mormont's raven says Jon's full name, RIGHT before that he says "King." I've felt all along that Jon would end up being King in the North once his true parentage is revealed and (perhaps) he's not really a "Snow" after all. Even though I suspect that he might keep the name because of everything that came with it and how he overcame the insult of it (mostly because of Tyrion's encouragement/wisdom). Jon Snow Stark anyone?

I really think Lady is dead and that it does represent Sansa becoming "less Stark" but I'm only in AGOT in my re-read, so who knows what I'll think when I get back to the end of ADWD again...

 

[5wolves]

I will go back to what someone was getting at earlier... I believe Lady is still alive... four remained and one he could no longer sense i do not believe includes summer in the four remained.... i could be wrong, but i remember when i read that passage i read it at least six times thinking that means there are five wolves still. Lady wouldn't be the first character to seemingly be dead and yet resurface.... I think those who are trying to say no lady is dead have their heads in the sand and are not taking into account Martin's writing style, he wrote it rather cryptically but he did that intentionally to leave it open for interpretation. If the one he could no longer sense is indeed summer because he is beyond the wall, that still leaves the four who remained... and that would have to include either grey wind or lady as being among the living still.... Had Martin wanted you to believe summer was no longer sensed or whatever why would he go on to talk of sensing summer? he is not a stupid writer...

 

[Boaz]

5wolves, welcome to the Chronicles Network! I hope you enjoy posting comments and reading the observations of others as much as I do.

"Once they had been six... Four remained..."

To me, this means there were six... Now only four are left (Ghost, Nymeria, Shaggydog, and Summer), but Ghost has a hard time detecting any connection to Summer.

But the strongest evidence to me is the lack of information regarding Lady in Eddard's, Bran's and Sansa's POVs.

If Eddard did not kill Lady... If Eddard deceived Robert... If Eddard had a secret to tell Sansa... then I think this information would have come to us in through either his fevered dreams or through his regrets while he was in the dungeon, especially when Varys mentioned that Sansa would suffer if Eddard refused Joffrey's mercy.

It is Ghost's feelings that give rise to a theory that Lady might be alive. Now Jon's understanding of his connection to Ghost pales in comparison to Bran's knowledge of Summer's feelings. Bran has also pushed his abilities much farther than Jon... to the point of possessing Hodor. If Ghost can sense his siblings, why not Summer? I'd expect Lady's presence to be found by Summer before it is detected by Ghost.

Sansa and Arya were with their wolves for only a short period of time. Their connections were not as fully developed as any of their brothers'. Even so, while Arya travelled the Riverlands she sensed Nymeria. Sansa has been in KL and the Eyrie ever since she lost Lady in the Riverlands. Sansa is not that far from the Riverlands... I think she'd have sensed Lady.

As for Lady's significance to Sansa...

How much of Lady's death will be directly applicable to Sansa? Will she be killed by a family member? ...a person she trusts? ...the Hand of the King? ...the Lord of Winterfell? Will she stare straight into her killer's eyes? Will she willingly submit?

Compare Lady's death to that of Nissa Nissa, wife of Azor Ahai. Nissa Nissa apparently willingly allowed Azor Ahai to plunge his red hot sword straight into her heart. She trusted him. She probably looked him right in the eye.

Could Sansa Stark be the Nissa Nissa to Azor Ahai reborn?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

my 2 cents -

The wolves are linked to the stark "Children" (they are more gorwn up than I ever will be)

Ghost's link with Jon is strong in such a way that Jon's brothers and sisters are synonymous with Ghosts brothers and sisters.

We get Ghost's feelings in a Jon chapter while Jon is in ghost.

Only 1 of the stark children are dead, being Robb.

The one sibling he can't feel is Greywind/Robb.

To me, this dream should be telling Jon that his younger brothers are still alive, rather than focusing on the fact that there is one wolf he can't sense any more.

 

[Brian G Turner]

As for Lady's significance to Sansa...

I always took the death of Lady to mean Sansa severed from the Stark family. The wolves represent the connection to the House, not whether their corresponding child will live or die.

This would also mean Sansa may not be able to rule Winterfell, but sets her up as a possibility for the Iron Throne, if that doesn't sound odd.

 

[Boaz]

Brian, in addition to Sansa being third to the seat of House Stark after Bran and Rickon, she's fourth in line for Riverrun behind Edmure, Roslin and Brynden (and mayhaps Edmure's child), she's probably third in line for the Eyrie behind Robert and Harry, and she's technically Lady Lannister as well. She's anywhere from second to fifth in line to four of the eight great houses. This makes her a tremendous match for the Targaryens... especially if Dany cannot conceive a child.

 

[BetaWolf]

Sansa is still a single woman, too. All these young, powerful women with good pedigrees (and claims) makes future developments potentially VERY interesting.

 

[Boaz]

Do you recall Lady's death? Eddard sent Sansa away and then spent some time petting Lady.... then he killed her.

Do you recall the dog's death in the prologue to ADWD? The father sent Lump away and then killed the dog.

Similar circumstances.

 

[devilsgrin]

Sansa is still a single woman, too. All these young, powerful women with good pedigrees (and claims) makes future developments potentially VERY interesting.

technically she's NOT a single woman any more. she's married to Tyrion... although, "Allayne Stone" is a single woman.

 

[Keebs411]

technically she's NOT a single woman any more. she's married to Tyrion... although, "Allayne Stone" is a single woman.

True but her marriage to Tyrion was not consummated thus it can be annulled and is not binding. Sooooo, i say shes a single lady as herself and her secret alter ego. @ least in my eyes and going by GRRMs rules of marriage and how it is made binding and with out protest. Oh how Tywin tried to tell Tyrion to seal the deal but he did not listen (but im glad he didnt listen).

 

[Eulalia]

I think the validity of the Tyrion/Sansa marriage could end up being a very important dispute (even if it could be annulled technically). (see Henry VIII/ Catherine of Aragon) There is certainly some civil war potential in there somewhere, if Tyrion or Sansa or Littlefinger or someone else wants to make it so.