Does George R R Martin really kill major characters?

[Brian G Turner]

SPOILERS ALERT!


Yes, I said, SPOILERS ALERT!

Discussion for those who have read most if not all of the A Song of Ice and Fire books...

I read on a blog today a statement about how the series is groundbreaking, because:

George R R Martin is not afraid to kill major characters.

However, I had to pause there. The death of Ned Stark was a shock, of course - but I don't think he really has killed off any major characters since.

The only exception that comes to mind is Robb - but he was never a POV character anyway, just another player in the political game. The Red Wedding has its fans, it was an event with shock value, but no major POV character died.

Only Catelyn could be argued otherwise - but she's some kind of weird undead thing now.

Which seems to happen a bit too regularly with some characters.

And then there's Gregor, who should have died, but, oh look, there's a huge new Kingsguard who won't show his face and is pretending not to be Gregor.

Arya is still alive. Sansa is still alive. Bran is still alive. Jon is ... well, in a cliff hangar and unlikely to die (if you disagree, please take it to the other thread!), Dany is still alive, Theon is still alive, Brienne, Jaime, Samwell, Davos, Cersei.

So the only major POV characters to die are Ned and Cat. So that's one and a half major POV characters are dead.

Somehow the statement that GRRM isn't afraid to kill major characters seems dubious at best to myself.

Does the shock of Ned's death really reverberate so much through the reader's mind?

Discussion time.

 

[HareBrain]

Does the shock of Ned's death really reverberate so much through the reader's mind?

Yes.

Discussion time.

Oh ... that's all I've got.

No, I think you've made an excellent point. Without Ned, no one would think that about Martin, or at least, no more than they do about many other authors.

 

[Nerds_feather]

SPOILERS ALERT!


Yes, I said, SPOILERS ALERT!

Discussion for those who have read most if not all of the A Song of Ice and Fire books...

I read on a blog today a statement about how the series is groundbreaking, because:



However, I had to pause there. The death of Ned Stark was a shock, of course - but I don't think he really has killed off any major characters since.

The only exception that comes to mind is Robb - but he was never a POV character anyway, just another player in the political game. The Red Wedding has its fans, it was an event with shock value, but no major POV character died.

Only Catelyn could be argued otherwise - but she's some kind of weird undead thing now.

Which seems to happen a bit too regularly with some characters.

And then there's Gregor, who should have died, but, oh look, there's a huge new Kingsguard who won't show his face and is pretending not to be Gregor.

Arya is still alive. Sansa is still alive. Bran is still alive. Jon is ... well, in a cliff hangar and unlikely to die (if you disagree, please take it to the other thread!), Dany is still alive, Theon is still alive, Brienne, Jaime, Samwell, Davos, Cersei.

So the only major POV characters to die are Ned and Cat. So that's one and a half major POV characters are dead.

Somehow the statement that GRRM isn't afraid to kill major characters seems dubious at best to myself.

Does the shock of Ned's death really reverberate so much through the reader's mind?

Discussion time.

...and this is one of my serious problems with the direction the series has taken. Martin seems too attached to everything at this point--not just characters, but also storylines that go nowhere. The series needs a more vigorous editing hand to get back on track, like the one that hovered above the first three books, metaphorically-speaking.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

See, I didn't find Ned's death that shocking. Characters do die. But then again, I grew up on Mister King, where it happens quite a lot. (In Salem's Lot only two characters actually survive... in the Stand, it's a handful, same in Under the Dome.) Even the red wedding didn't shock me, especially. It was a cool scene, but it was clear for a while that Robb had crossed the wrong people and had lost support over the preceeding chapters.

What irks me more is the continual cliffhangers, particularly at the end of books, that come to nothing. Like, I suspect, the one with Jon at the moment. It's a cheap way of selling books. He's very good at them, I grant you, but I agree; he doesn't do anything more shocking that many other writers (maybe it's that fantasy doesn't have a pedigree of it as much as other genres, I probably haven't read enough to comment, but I suppose when you think of LOTR and what not, there isn't that pedigree).

I was much more shocked when Paul Atreides died.

I don't know how I'd feel if he saw it through with Jon. Disappointed cos he is the best character. But in a way, I'd give GRRM something for having kahunas, that I don't think the other deaths have shown him to have. But my money is on it being a cliffhanger that disappoints. Again.

 

[Nerds_feather]

There's too much superhero-esque "he's dead"/"no he's not" going on.

 

[Juliana]

Agreed, he seems way too attached to many of his characters. Just follow through with at least one or two of the deaths! Its getting a tad predictable.

I don't know where the character-killing rep comes from...

Love his work, but the dead/undead thing needs refreshing. Maybe he'll really kill someone in the next book, that would shake things up nicely and leave the readers guessing again.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Was Ned's death a shock?

I'm usually fairly bad at seeing things like that coming, but I saw it a mile away. I would've been staggered if he hadn't been killed.

However, the thread's premise is a very good one. I think you've changed my mind, Brian.

I also agree that Mr. Martin might feel too attached to characters. I think if that happens it may often be a good idea to kill them. Nothing defines a character so much as death, it adds a nice air of uncertainty for the reader and it stops an emotional attachment for a character dictating which way the story should go, instead of the story determining what happens to the characters.

 

[Needle]

To begin, I actually agree that GRRM hasn't truly killed any major characters. The story was never really about Ned personally. He had to die in order for his children (some of them at least) to tell us the real story.

However, you didn't know this in the beginning. We have mostly become used to a certain kind of story. LOTR, for example, you met all the "good" guys in the beginning. They all survive perils of all sorts to give us a happy ending. The same is true of the Dune saga, (just FYI springs, Paul did not die, the blind priest was wandering in the desert long after Paul "died"). This is the norm for most fantasy. The good guys survive all, the bad guys go down. In ASOIAF we are not even sure which is which most of the time!

So all in all, yes it reverberates that much.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Didn't the blind priest die at the end of Dune Messiah? I really liked that book, it is my favourite of the saga, how he left us almost sure it was Paul, but not quite.... Admittedly, i only read the first four, so maybe he popped up again later on, but i was pretty sure he was dead at the end of book two? Wanders over to bookcase, worried...

 

[stephen.samuels]

You see I do like GRRM for the fact that he does kill his characters. But, if we're honest Song of Ice and Fire would not stand on very solid foundations if there wasn't a good deal of bloodshed.

Also one has to admit that unexpected killings of main characters are hard to pull off.

 

[Ursa major]

A number of points.

The first is that just because someone says something in a blog, it doesn't make it true. And if it turns out not to be true, that shouldn't reflect badly on the subject of that blog. I'm not even sure that "groundbreaking", even if appropriate in this case (and for the reason given), is necessarily a positive thing: I'm sure that making Vampires sparkly was, at one time, groundbreaking.

Second, major character is not synonymous with PoV character. In the books so far, there have been 31 different PoV characters, by my reckoning. Also by my reckoning (and after having waved a wet finger in the air), 11 of these are major characters, 10 minor characters, and 10 somewhere in between.

Brian is correct in pointing out that only two major PoV characters have died, one of whom is back in some state or other, while a third may or may not be alive (and a fourth may have an incurable, and fatal, disease). Minor PoV characters are less durable: 7 have died (generally in prologues or epilogues, none of them, though, wearing red shirts as far as I can recall). The middling PoV characters have, so far, a 100% survival rate. (Obviously, I'm counting Kevan Lannister as a minor character.)

Once we accept a PoV character may not be a major character, we ought to recognise that major characters may not be PoV characters (as certain big names weren't until later in the series: Jaime and Cersei being prime examples). But there are other major characters. Just from AGoT, we have Robb, Tywin, Robert Baratheon, Joffrey, Drogo, Viserys; all of these have died during the series. They are major because we see them quite often and their actions (or inactions) have driven the plot. (And as far as plot driving is concerned, Littlefinger and Varys may be candidates for being considered major characters, although the latter has kept more to the shadows.)


As an aside, what makes ASoIaF "gritty" (a word often associated with the series and with a high death count) for me is the depth of description relating to the results of a civil war: the devastated land, the devastated population, the evidence of what is lost even by the "winning" side. (GRRM even has a running joke about the latter: look at the survival rate of the Lords of Harrenhal.) What's worse (for the land and the people) is that the game of thrones is really little more than the arranging of deckchairs on the Titanic: it has little impact on the bigger struggle between Ice (the Others) and Fire (the followers of R'hllor).

 

[Gumboot]

I agree with Ursa major. "Major character" and "POV character" are not the same thing, and any number of major non-POV characters have been killed.

Further, it's important to consider context. Reflecting on the complete work, a particular character may not appear to be that important, but at the time of their death they might have been enormously important. A perfect example of that is Viserys. In the big scheme of things he's practically irrelevant, but at the time of his death he was a central character. Likewise with Khal Drogo.

 

[Boaz]

Jon is ... well, in a cliff hangar and unlikely to die

"Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do... Go through his clothes and look for loose change."

SPOILER ALERT! Death totals in the series...

First, a thank you to Brian for the Chronicles Network. I appreciate being able to bore people to my heart's content.

Second, a caveat.... All numbers are off the top of my head. They are close, but may not be correct. I'm not assigning judgement to whether GRRM kills off a lot, some, or a few characters. Just trying to give you some numbers to use.

I'm going to give two lists regarding deceased characters and those who may have been presumed dead at one time or another. By "presumed dead", I mean that the readers may assume that the character has died... I don't mena that the populace of Westeros believes the characters dead, e.g. everyone believes that Arya, Bran and Rickon are all dead and they presume that Sansa might also be deceased.

The following characters were all POV, major, primary supporting, fan favorites, or major pieces in The Game. I'm also going to include the prologue and epilogue POVs... all of whom die, in case you did not know!

AGOT Dead: Will (prologue), Lady, Syrio, Viserys, Robert, Eddard (POV), and Drogo.



ACOK: Maester Cressen (prologue), Maester Luwin, Renly, Qhorin, and Pyat Pree.

ACOK Presumed Dead: Bran (POV), Rickon, Tyrion (POV), Davos (POV), and Theon (POV).



ASOS Dead: Chett (prologue), Jeor Mormont, Ygritte, Grey Wind, Robb, Catelyn (POV), Balon Greyjoy, Joffrey, Prince Oberyn, Lysa, Shae, Tywin, and Merrett Frey (epilogue).

ASOS Presumed Dead: Arya, undead Beric Dondarrion, the Mountain, and the Hound.



AFFC Dead: Pate (prologue), Arys (POV), and Maester Aemon.

AFFC Presumed Dead: Myrcella Baratheon, Brienne (POV), Podrick, Davos (POV), and Loras.



ADWD Dead: Varamyr (prologue), Rattleshirt, Quentyn, and Ser Kevan (epilogue).

ADWD Presumed Dead: Mance, Stannis, Theon, Jeyne Poole, Jon.



You'll notice that Davos and Theon made the presumed dead list twice!

Eddard, Catelyn, and Arys are only three out of twenty-three POV characters to die.

Compare the total number of characters (major and minor) to other fantasy series that have enjoyed commercial succes and have been converted to film... like, The Lord of the Rings, Harry Potter, and The Hunger Games.

I know a comparison between adult and teen/tweener lit may not be equitable, but the common point is popularity.

How many characters did Tolkien, Rowling, and Collins kill? Tolkien killed off Boromir, Gandalf (for a little while), Theoden, and Denethor. That's three in a trilogy. Oh, and Gollum, Sauron, Saruman, and Wormtongue also died... but you knew they were going to get theirs.

As for Rowling's story, Quirrell, Cedric, Sirius, Mad Eye, Dumbledore, Dobby, Snape, Remus, Tonks, and Fred. Of course, the villains also were written out... Voldemort, Wormtail, and Bellatrix.

And that brings me to The Hunger Games... I only read (or will ever read) the first book. I hope I'm not spoiling it, but almost everybody dies. It's a duel-to-the-death-contest...

Perhaps a more accurate comparison would be to a voluminous fantasy series.... like The Wheel of Time, The Belgariad, The (Neverending) Riftwar Saga, The Dragonlance Chronicles, The Plagiarism of Shanarra, etc... I believe that readers of fantasy have been programmed by writers to expect that the vast majority of protagonists to survive. Sidekicks are another matter entirely. Eddard was set forth as the protagonist of AGOT and I, for one, thought he was going to The Wall.

 

[svalbard]

So did I. Even as I read the words I kept expecting something to happen, some ridicolous set of circumtstances that would lead to his rescue. But no...the sword fell, the head was lopped off and I sat stunned, book open in limp hands making strange gurgling sounds. My wife thought I was having a stroke, maybe I was...it bloody felt like one.

 

[Anne Lyle]

I agree with Ursa major. "Major character" and "POV character" are not the same thing, and any number of major non-POV characters have been killed.

True - but most fantasy books kill off major non-PoV characters, particularly bad guys, all the time. Indeed we expect them to!

I agree with Brian - GRRM's reputation is based on killing Ned, a major PoV we were set up to empathise with. I can't comment on the rest as I stopped reading after A Clash of Kings as I found the whole "civil war is hell" theme just too grim to be enjoyable...

 

[Reivax26]

I watched an interview where GRRM said that the hardest thing he ever had to write was "The Red Wedding". He actually skipped it and wrote the chapters that happened after it because he didn't want to write it. That left me with the impression that he is very attached to his characters but then again most authors are.

Few authors kill off major characters and even a smaller margin in the Fantasy genre. My favorite author, David Gemmell, has killed off several of his but they all died in heroic fashion so I'm ok with that. What happened to Ned was not how I would have killed him. In my opinion he should have died in his duel with Jaime. That could have served as something for Jaime to feel regret about later on since he has actually regained a considerable amount of his honor now.

I really hope that Jaime and Tyrion survive. Davos as well.

 

[svalbard]

I watched an interview where GRRM said that the hardest thing he ever had to write was "The Red Wedding". He actually skipped it and wrote the chapters that happened after it because he didn't want to write it. That left me with the impression that he is very attached to his characters but then again most authors are.

Few authors kill off major characters and even a smaller margin in the Fantasy genre. My favorite author, David Gemmell, has killed off several of his but they all died in heroic fashion so I'm ok with that. What happened to Ned was not how I would have killed him. In my opinion he should have died in his duel with Jaime. That could have served as something for Jaime to feel regret about later on since he has actually regained a considerable amount of his honor now.

I really hope that Jaime and Tyrion survive. Davos as well.

I fear not too many will survive to the end and Westoras will be littered with the corpses of Martin's fertile imagination. I know the series has being compared to the Wars of the Roses and rightly so, especially the first book. But as the books have gone on I feel a comparison with The Thirty Years War in Europe during the 17th century is more in line. The absolute devastation rendered by the War of the Five Kings, the religious turmoil and hinted at social changes in the series all bare close examination with the history of early 17th century Europe.

As an aside the deaths of Pagan and Ananais in The King Beyond the Gate are amongst my favourite passages in Gemmell's writings.

 

[Reivax26]

Svalbard: I agree with your viewpoint on the comparison of his writing and the 30 Year War. That had not dawned on me until you mentioned it but you are quite right.

I agree about Pagan and Ananais by the way.

 

[Anne Lyle]

I know the series has being compared to the Wars of the Roses and rightly so...

I believe GRRM explicitly based part of his political history on the Wars of the Roses:

Robert Baratheon = Edward IV
Cersei Lannister = Elizabeth Woodville
Tyrion Lannister/Ned Stark = Richard III

(Tyrion's the deformed younger brother aspect of Richard, Ned is the loyal northern lord who tries to depose the king's "bastards" to keep the queen and her kin from power).

I agree, though, that it's not the only inspiration. The Wars of the Roses affected only one tiny kingdom and wasn't particularly devastating for the non-combatants.

 

[Nerds_feather]

The names are a dead giveaway (or a red herring):

York/Stark
Lancaster/Lannister