Does George R R Martin really kill major characters?

[juleska]

Boaz, Syrio needs to be in your "Presumed Dead" list for AGOT. We have no confirmation of his death.

 

[Jonathan C]

I believe GRRM explicitly based part of his political history on the Wars of the Roses:

Robert Baratheon = Edward IV
Cersei Lannister = Elizabeth Woodville
Tyrion Lannister/Ned Stark = Richard III

(Tyrion's the deformed younger brother aspect of Richard, Ned is the loyal northern lord who tries to depose the king's "bastards" to keep the queen and her kin from power).

I agree, though, that it's not the only inspiration. The Wars of the Roses affected only one tiny kingdom and wasn't particularly devastating for the non-combatants.

I tend to view Littlefinger as something like the Shakespearean Richard III in this story.

In fact, ASoIaF as a Shakespearean epic tragedy, except in a fantasy land, is how I would describe the series, more so than "gritty realist fantasy".

Anyway, I agree completely with the OP, and its something I noticed myself. Its funny comparing this to something like Mistborn, a much more lighthearted novel (by comparison), and realize that Sanderson is far more cutthroat with his cast, but doesn't have the same rep (though his cast being smaller probably has something to do with it).

If / when I ever write my own fantasy epic, I intend to build a mountain of corpses, partly because I can't think of many stories where that truly happens.

 

[Boaz]

jules, my apologies for not seeing your last comment. Yes, you are correct. As a self-appointed watchdog regarding technicalities and semantics, I wholeheartedly agree with you. BUT.... I think the only conclusion is that he is dead.

1. After Syrio interferes with Arya's arrest, Ser Meryn says, "Kill the Braavosi and bring me the girl."
2. Syrio, knowing Ser Meyn is ready to use lethal force, told Arya that "The first sword of Braavos does not run."
3. Ser Meryn is seen multiple times later in the series.
4. Syrio is never seen again.

One could argue that Syrio was made prisoner, but to what purpose? One could say we never heard Meryn boast of the fight, but he's not a POV character so there's a lot about him that we don't know.

Maybe that's the origin of the Syrio=Jaqen theory. Yet that would make less sense than Syrio defeating Meryn and then using his faceless skills to impersonate Meryn for years.

Jonathan C, I have a few thoughts regarding your "mountain of corpses" and tragedy in plays... that sounds like Greek tragedy and myth to me. Let's check the epic Homeric story...

(My memory may be hazy... I hope I get these correct.)

Achilles? Dead. He may have inspired Khal Drogo to some degree.
Hector? Dead.
Paris? Dead.
Big Ajax? Dead.
Diomedes? Dead.
Priam? Dead.
Astyanax? Dead. Inspiration for Baby Aegon?
Patroclus? Dead.
Sarpedon? Dead.
Polydamas? Dead.

Agamemnon? Survived the war only to be murdered in the bath. Kinda like Tywin.

Odysseus? Survived. But he wished on a few ocassions that he had died in the war. By the way, it is sort of ironic that in a story where everyone dies that Sean Bean's character lives.
Aeneas? Survived. His course of action may be mirrored by Dany.
Menelaus? Survived. I can see Victarion in Menelaus... and mayhaps Jorah.
Nestor? Survived.
Little Ajax? Survived. But he reminds me of the Red Viper... a nasty little piece of work.
Idomeneus? Survived.

I've forgotten many, many characters. One of the reasons that I cannot remember tham is because they died.

I should mention that all the Trojan women survived... Hecuba, Briseis, Helen, Chryseis, Cassandra, etc... but that they were all raped and taken away as saltwives.

 

[Jonathan C]

Well....I meant, modern epic fantasy stories. And stuff like that.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Perhaps 'major' is the wrong word? I'm really not sure what other word you could use though. And major doesn't necessarily have to mean POV character.

I think Ned was a major character, and I for one didn't see his death coming. But all the fantasy I had read prior to AGOT did NOT kill off major characters, or ones that the reader assumed would be around. So I was quite shocked when Ned died, and I was also shocked when Rob died. (For what its worth, I wish Catelyn had stayed dead, but I assume GRRM knows what he's doing better than I do). Even if you don't consider Robb a major character, he had been around for 3 books, and played an instrumental role in the happenings of Westeros. I feel similar about Tywin and Joffrey.

 

[The Imp]

jules, my apologies for not seeing your last comment. Yes, you are correct. As a self-appointed watchdog regarding technicalities and semantics, I wholeheartedly agree with you. BUT.... I think the only conclusion is that he is dead.

1. After Syrio interferes with Arya's arrest, Ser Meryn says, "Kill the Braavosi and bring me the girl."
2. Syrio, knowing Ser Meyn is ready to use lethal force, told Arya that "The first sword of Braavos does not run."
3. Ser Meryn is seen multiple times later in the series.
4. Syrio is never seen again.

One could argue that Syrio was made prisoner, but to what purpose? One could say we never heard Meryn boast of the fight, but he's not a POV character so there's a lot about him that we don't know.

Maybe that's the origin of the Syrio=Jaqen theory. Yet that would make less sense than Syrio defeating Meryn and then using his faceless skills to impersonate Meryn for years.

Jonathan C, I have a few thoughts regarding your "mountain of corpses" and tragedy in plays... that sounds like Greek tragedy and myth to me. Let's check the epic Homeric story...

(My memory may be hazy... I hope I get these correct.)

Achilles? Dead. He may have inspired Khal Drogo to some degree.
Hector? Dead.
Paris? Dead.
Big Ajax? Dead.
Diomedes? Dead.
Priam? Dead.
Astyanax? Dead. Inspiration for Baby Aegon?
Patroclus? Dead.
Sarpedon? Dead.
Polydamas? Dead.

Agamemnon? Survived the war only to be murdered in the bath. Kinda like Tywin.

Odysseus? Survived. But he wished on a few ocassions that he had died in the war. By the way, it is sort of ironic that in a story where everyone dies that Sean Bean's character lives.
Aeneas? Survived. His course of action may be mirrored by Dany.
Menelaus? Survived. I can see Victarion in Menelaus... and mayhaps Jorah.
Nestor? Survived.
Little Ajax? Survived. But he reminds me of the Red Viper... a nasty little piece of work.
Idomeneus? Survived.

I've forgotten many, many characters. One of the reasons that I cannot remember tham is because they died.

I should mention that all the Trojan women survived... Hecuba, Briseis, Helen, Chryseis, Cassandra, etc... but that they were all raped and taken away as saltwives.

i feel compelled to support the very viable theory that Syrio might be alive.

We know that a lightly armored Bronn was able to decimate Ser Vardis Egan. With that fight, GRRM is literally telling us that Speed and skill matter as much as brawn and armor.

Consider the fight. Syrio had already dispatched 4 men of the City Watch, and would have any of their weapons at his disposal. He'd merely have to just bend down and pick one up. Assuming that Syrio just needed to hold Trant off, then make his escape, why would Trant want to publicize the fact that he couldn't capture an unarmored Dancing Master?

Also, just to be able to stay on the crazy train, I like the idea of Syrion being Jaqan, but it's unlikely.

 

[Boaz]

SPOILER ALERT!! Confirmation and speculation regarding the deaths of named characters throughout the series!!!

Jonathan, I did not mean my post as a rebuke or criticism! Sorry. I was just trying to give a comparison... a benchmark, for your epic bloodbath. I'm all for you giving the world a new fantasy.

Lady, Major was immediately taken by us to mean POV. Important, neccessary, favortie, or integral might be words to help us break the hold that POV has on our brains. The oft mentioned and briefly appearing Syrio is one such character. He's so integral to Arya's story and such a favorite that even enlightened posters like Imp and jules lose their stinkin' minds when I suggest that he's dead. Robb (important, favorite, necessary, integral), Syrio (integral, favorite), Oberyn (favorite, necessary), Gregor (necessary, important), Rhaegar (integral), Drogo (favorite, necessary), Jeor (necessary), Aemon (integral), Robert (integral), Ygritte (necessary, integral, favorite... if I did not say that the Y.A.D.L might come for me at home) and Quentyn (integral, nobody's favorite) are all deceased characters that impacted the story. We could add Old Nan, Balon, Kevan, Daeron, Jory, Ser Rodrik, Donal Noye, Rattleshirt, Dontos, and Arys are all fairly important (and if I was writing the story, I might find it hard to part with them), but I don't think any of them were as necessary to the bottom line.

Let me add that my favorite character, Dacey Mormont, was killed. Mmmmmmm, Dacey.

Sandor, Loras, Benjen, Brynden, Darkstar, Podrick, and Ashara lead the list of missing or presumed dead characters. Don't be surprised when GRRM ends their lives in a message or gossip. I'll say that Jaime will not die that way. He'll die in his own POV or one of his siblings.

The fantasy genre has developed certain tropes over the years. A major trope is that obvious heroes do not die. The reverse is also true... villians receive justice. Mayhaps it comes from the American westerns.

By the point in AGOT when Robb calls the banners, it is clear that Eddard, Jon, Robb, Drogo, and Dany are all obviously heroic characters while Jaime, Cersei, Viserys, and Joffrey are the villains. Yet by the end of AGOT, Eddard and Drogo (the main characters supporting the Stark and Targaryen families) are dead while the Kingslayer, the Queen Regent, and the Boy King are going strong. Even after five books, two of the first four villains are still going strong while the heroes have only one (possibly two) of their five remaining.

Mayhaps GRRM does not kill a high percentage of his charactes, but I think he's killed the tropes upon which we've all become dependent.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Well said Boaz.