2000 post critique

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I thought at the start this was perhaps an improvement, though having it in third-person strongly suggests we are looking at the girl from outside, so I think this would be difficult to integrate smoothly into a first-person narrative.

Right, well a large portion of the feedback suggested I try either present-tense or 3rd, so I tried both. I've still got both versions, so if I end up going back to the other one and making it sound a bit older, then so be it.

I can see how it might come across as completely random with just this scene to go by. Probably by the end of the book you might realise what I've done here is actually quite deep into the foreboding but all done in a metaphorical sense. It's all completely relevant to the story. But perhaps I'm asking too much of the reader with this.

Um. I'd cut the tottom pole and the lion half of the growling. Have the guy speak demonic gibberish or appear more human. Liked the bit with the dad, unless the number two is going to be an issue with her I'd bring the forest bit up by dropping him once the mist infolds him.

But I like the pouwhenua(or the totem pole as Native Americans call it, even though they are actually different things). :( It's actually quite significant in context. But I like demonic gibberish, considering the guy actually is a demon. Maybe I could add the pouwhenua in with the next round of nightmares and start later on so it isn't taking so long to get to that point. And I could make the Tierra - the angel - the 'new' element this time.

Good stuff. Fantastical. But in serious need of trimming. Loads of potential. *wanders off muttering to herself in a sleepy way*

Ok, well that makes two for too long. :)


Thanks for the responses.
 
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Keep the polethingamy if its better than the bodies scattered. Have her mums eyes bleed or something so she's drowning in someone else's blood and sorrow.
 
*edit:wanders back in* oh yeah the blood. What color are her sheets? I like the clawing out of the blood bit it carried on about half a breath long I thought. I'd drop the bear if you're going to do the blood. Or have him pull her out of it as she's screaming mother so its not the room dripping blood that caries over but the fuzzy in her hand.
Oh yeah I like that.
Cause then she's forcing reality back with 'no i lost him ages ago' not 'oh im in my room' both could be reality but the bear has better litterary prospect.

Oh, so actually have the bear acting as if alive? Instead of swimming out of the blood, having the bear grab her hands and pull her out? That is a very interesting idea.


Keep the polethingamy if its better than the bodies scattered. Have her mums eyes bleed or something so she's drowning in someone else's blood and sorrow.

Oh, you're full of good ideas tonight! Can I have your number on speed dial? :p just kidding.

Yes, I could cut the bodies out - with exception to the mother of course.

Thanks.
 
I liked the disengagement, the distancing, of the third person, like she's watching it on a screen, and the present tense worked for me, too, but I also felt it went on far too long and threatened to be boring, which is absolutely the last thing you want. Personally, I'd cut it drastically.** Why not try it as a series of vignettes? ie so it's wholly dark, suddenly illuminated by a flash of strong light showing the child and the parents, like a tableau, then it goes black again, then another flash and it's a different part of it. See if you like it that way. If not, and you want to keep it this length with all the elements you've included, then HB's idea might be a better way to go. (But even if you don't proceed with this version, you won't have lost anything in the trying -- it's shown a different take, and given you a different technique to experiment with.)

Another thing I'd suggest is no dialogue in the dream save perhaps the "So this is the child" line (which I liked) as that would heighten the distancing effect.

NB I didn't find the switch back into first person a problem, but I think if you put the "Mamma!" on a line of its own, it would serve as both the dream cry and her wakening scream (but delete "screamed, and" to make it ambiguous) and serve as a better link.


** just seen your comment about foreshadowing which suggests you need all of it. How about making this just the first of the dreams we see, with just part of the action, and then drop in others as you progress through the book? That would allow you to get all of it in without overloading any one sequence. There would be no need to have her waking each time, which would be repetitive, but simply have a few hundred words in third person present separated out from the rest of the narrative and we'd understand what was happening.

EDIT: I see you've edited to indicate this is indeed just the first of a line of dreams, so my suggestion isn't as radical as I thought!!
 
** just seen your comment about foreshadowing which suggests you need all of it. How about making this just the first of the dreams we see, with just part of the action, and then drop in others as you progress through the book? That would allow you to get all of it in without overloading any one sequence. There would be no need to have her waking each time, which would be repetitive, but simply have a few hundred words in third person present separated out from the rest of the narrative and we'd understand what was happening.

EDIT: I see you've edited to suggest this is indeed just the first of a line of dreams, so my suggestion isn't as radical as I thought!!

Yep, I'm already thinking that. Thanks though for the suggestions about dialogue. I think I'll definitely use the transition one. I'll think about the others.
 
Oh I meant the mothers face on the pole. But that works too.
And seriously, anytime you want to take my subconscious off my hands is fine with me. ;) I'll take speed dial number 4. Because 4 has meaning for me.
 
Four is actually the magic number in my book. 4 gods, 4 great houses, 4 minor houses, 4 capital cities and 4 demon-lords.


It isn't actually the mother's face on the pole. The girl would have recognised her if it was. Although the older Kateryn knows her already, but I wanted the reader to keep guessing about the woman's identity.

EDIT:

I think I'll make the pouwhenua a dream on its own and end this nightmare how it used to.


EDIT2:

*edit:wanders back in* oh yeah the blood. What color are her sheets? I like the clawing out of the blood bit it carried on about half a breath long I thought. I'd drop the bear if you're going to do the blood. Or have him pull her out of it as she's screaming mother so its not the room dripping blood that caries over but the fuzzy in her hand.
Oh yeah I like that.
Cause then she's forcing reality back with 'no i lost him ages ago' not 'oh im in my room' both could be reality but the bear has better litterary prospect.

This is actually a fantastic idea and works in with the foreshadowing. I wonder... how many people noticed the chekov's gun? Here's a hint: it starts with the bear.
 
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I'm afraid I found this too distancing for me, and also think it should be shorter.

I would have thought present tense, first person, would have worked well for this. I usually write in first person, and have used first person present tense for a scene where a character is ill and in a dream state.
 
I'm afraid I found this too distancing for me, and also think it should be shorter.

I would have thought present tense, first person, would have worked well for this. I usually write in first person, and have used first person present tense for a scene where a character is ill and in a dream state.

Thanks Crystal. Yeah, the distancing is a strange thing. We usually tell people off for doing it, yet sometimes there are those moments where it's done deliberately for a psychological effect, but of course, we typically aren't used to that, so it doesn't work for everyone.

You'll be glad to know though, I've already taken the axe to 400 words.

Writing in 1st I'd have to deal with the voice again, which didn't work. Although it is possible I can make it work, but I'd have to go disjointed too if I wanted it to realistically reflect the young Kateryn's voice.
 
Writing in 1st I'd have to deal with the voice again, which didn't work.

You could try writing it from the POV of her, at 17, when she's awake. This would give a more "reported" feel rather than being immersive, but would make it a lot shorter.

Eg "That night I dreamt of when I was ten, and blah blah".

It would also allow her to pull out the bits of the dream she feels are important, and would get around some of the difficulties with voice you're having because of the first-person perspective.

Might be no good, but might be worth a try.
 
Hi, WP. Everybody's got in ahead of me, so I can't really add much. Late to the party, again. ;)
Congratulations on 2,000 posts.
As to setting yourself something 'above your abilities', go for it. It doesn't do you any good if you don't push yourself.

And, going back a few posts, I don't mind first person. I didn't used to like it, but got converted by some good writing.
 
You could try writing it from the POV of her, at 17, when she's awake. This would give a more "reported" feel rather than being immersive, but would make it a lot shorter.

Eg "That night I dreamt of when I was ten, and blah blah".

It would also allow her to pull out the bits of the dream she feels are important, and would get around some of the difficulties with voice you're having because of the first-person perspective.

Might be no good, but might be worth a try.

I could. I've done it before, but only with a half page long dream, nothing this big. I can imagine it starting to feel like an info-dump if it went on for a couple pages. But as you say, pull bits out, which would make it shorter again.

Thanks for the suggestion HB.

And thanks for the comments Aber. I'm the same. Didn't like 1st person until I was recently converted. Now I'm writing 90% of a novel in it. But I always try to push myself with my writing. Unfortunately half the time it doesn't work, but I'm still unsure about which version of this works better. Some people liked the 1st person, some people liked the 3rd... I think I'll sleep on it, considering I've been at this scene all day and it's now 1am.
 
I'm still unsure about which version of this works better. Some people liked the 1st person, some people liked the 3rd... I think I'll sleep on it, considering I've been at this scene all day and it's now 1am.
Definitely go to bed!

Another thing to remember, though, is that we're reading this in isolation. You've told us about the other bits, but we're not immersed in them. The real way to tell if something works isn't to read the 1000 words of the scene alone, but to read them in situ. After all, a scene with a lot of description might be brilliant on its own, but when every chapter around it is the same it might be too much.

I'd suggest leaving this to stew for a bit, then go back a few chapters and read everything together in one go and see how the present version fits then.
 
Today I went back and touched up the earlier chapters, editing them, fleshing out the culture a bit more, and read through it until I got back up to this chapter. I came to the conclusion that I like the 3rd-present version, and so I edited it down to 910 words. That's nearly 500 words gone.

I think this is one of the scenes where I'm just not going to win. There will be people that preferred I leave it as the old version, and then there will be people that like where I've gone with it. But the old version really didn't seem like a nightmare. This version does and it's a believable interpretation of what the mind could twist the memory into. It most certainly doesn't come across as just a retelling like the old version did.

I might as well post it back up for any who are interested in reading the tighter version, but you've all given plenty of feedback already, so I'm not going to insist on more. I tried taking out all the dialogue as suggested, but didn't like it, and in the end thought it had more emotional connection with the dialogue still there.

* * *​

Shouting and gunfire echo down the hall. A family runs from the Blackcoats chasing them, the mother pulling her daughter along by the hand, the girl trying so hard to keep up that her legs start to hurt. A toy bear dangles from the girl’s hand, tattered and well loved, its fur prickling her skin. Its right eye is missing. She wants to stop, but her father yells at her, his voice forceful, frightening.

The girl looks back, worried when her father’s voice isn’t as loud this time, and sees he has turned around. The walls swirl around him like a dark cloud born out of her imagination, strands of black smoke tearing away from the wall as if they are hands trying to reach for him. The girl panics, starts to cry, and her mother is forced to drag her along.

Her mother pulls her through a set of double doors and they slam shut. They run through a forest, the branches of trees twisting as they reach for her, but every time they get close, her mother turns away. The trees release a grinding cry in protest and the ground shakes whenever a branch comes to a stop.

With her chest freezing from shortness of breath, they stop, and only then does her mother let her go. They stand before a mountain that reaches all the way to the dark clouds above. The clouds flash, and thunder rumbles across the sky.

Her mother claws at the bushes and pulls them aside, revealing a hidden cave. She draws the girl close, and kneels before her. The girl feels her mother’s panting breath on her face, like a hundred tiny fingers dancing over her skin.

‘Listen, Kateryn. No matter what you hear. No matter what happens. Don’t make a sound.’ She shakes the girl. ‘Not a sound. Promise me!’

‘I promise!’ the girl cries, and then her mother pushes her inside the cave. Turning back, the girl sees her mother let go of the bushes. ‘No, don’t you leave me too!’ she says when she realises her mother wouldn’t be following her. ‘Mother!’

The girl tries to peek through the bushes, but it is pitch black, just like the cave. The thunder is deafening in her ears, growing so loud it hurts, and she hugs the bear close to her, feeling its fur tickle her face like a spider web.

Suddenly, light blinds her as the bushes are torn away. A dark shadow fills the cave entrance, a massive face peeks in, and glowing amber eyes fix on her. The monster’s mouth twists into a frightening smile.

With a booming voice it spouts demonic gibberish as its huge arm reaches for the girl and she starts to shuffle backwards, until her back touches the end of the cave. She swallows her scream, and the lump in her throat, then curls up into a ball, as if that might hide her from sight. The monster’s breathing is loud in her ears.

The light bursts into a thousand tiny snowflakes. The girl gasps and tenses as the world beyond the cave vanishes, the monster too, and even the cave. She floats in a pure white nothingness, yet her eyes are drawn to the woman in its centre.

A scar runs through the woman's right eye. She smiles, her silver eye sparkling with sympathy. Her long, brown hair floats around her head as if she is underwater, and wings, covered in emerald feathers, hang from her back. She stretches her wings out, arches her back and the nothingness shatters apart. The monster is gone, the bright light is also gone. Another woman stands in view of the cave entrance, looking at the girl.

The woman turns away, as if she has forgotten the girl is even there, and leaves her; just like her mother had. The girl crawls from the cave. She is surrounded by the bodies of those who’d chased her, their skin all red and black as if they’d died in a fire. Her eyes flutter from one to the next until she finds one familiar to her. She starts to cry as she crawls over to her mother and shakes her, saying. ‘Mamma… Mamma? Wake up.’

But her mother doesn’t wake. The girl’s hands come away red, and she notices blood everywhere, coming from her mother, and it just wouldn’t stop; the blood rising so high she’s drowning in it. Panicking, she struggles towards the surface.

‘Mamma!’

Fur brushed my hands and I grabbed hold. Paws pulled me up. I broke free from the ocean of blood, gasping for breath. Everywhere I looked, I saw red; covering the floor, my arms - my nightclothes. It wasn’t real, I told myself, still feeling the fur that tickled my skin, and squeezed my eyes shut. No, I’d lost him. I couldn’t even remember how, but he was no longer here. When I opened my eyes again, the blood was gone – the room was how it should be. That nightmare again. Every time, the same one.

I wouldn’t be able to sleep again; never could after the nightmares – I didn’t want to. My shift stuck to me, soaked with my sweat, making my skin itchy. I needed to get out of it, and get clean. There was one luxury I’d come to enjoy in Te kōkī; one luxury that would help wash away the bad memories.

*​
 
Yeah. See. I knew you could do it. You've got my number* if you have any other questions about dreams.

*its 4 ;)
 
Thanks, Hope. Time to move on and redraft what comes after this.


Oh btw, what's up with the bear's eye? :rolleyes:
 
I don't know about the bear, but it fits with your avatar!

I like this version. It feels very consistent and very well-written. Whether omnisicient is better than first, I can't really tell without seeing more but it's definitely good stuff.

One quick thing; I'd change peek to peer.
 

Well done on 2k posts, sorry I'm a bit late to the party, any beer left?

You've set yourself a tough task, WP, both a dream and a child’s POV - I'd don't think I'd try both together.

I think your dream feel gets better which each draft, and from when the child enters the cave it’s much better. The problem I have is the opening section, it’s 3rd person but it feels very distant 3rd person, and because of this it’s lacking emotion. So I think the opening hook is not working right yet, and this is because I don’t think you’ve captured the child’s voice; which you’ll need to do if you really want to pack a punch into this section.

Shouting and gunfire echo down the hall. A family – a family, that’s very distant runs from the Blackcoats – would the child know of Blackcoats, would they not just be bad men? chasing them, the mother – The mother is very distant, change to mummy! pulling her daughter along by the hand, the girl trying so hard to keep up that her legs start to hurt.

To – 1st person close seems to work best, on this one line anyway.

The bad men were close again, shouting loudly. Mummy kept pulling me along, my feet scrape the ground as we run. Mummy’s hand was hurting mine her grip was so strong. I wanted to stop running, my legs hurt, I was tired and scared, but the bad men were still there.

3rd Person much closer or 1st, the opening section feels very distant. However the last section gets better the further in you go. I think because you’re missing the breathless, child-like emotion at the start, the section is not what it could be.

The dialogue I thought was fine, and I didn’t feel the section was too long. I’d split off the waking section from the dream section to make it clearer for the reader, but it’s not confusing as it is.

Beware wild “then”, they breed in text and spread like vermin!

Anyway, lots of very good conflicting advice, one more for good measure. A brave experiment and one I’d keep going on.
My pennies worth, nothing more and nothing less – later, mate.
 
I don't know about the bear, but it fits with your avatar!

Thanks, Alc. I think when I drop interesting little hints, I'm asking too much for people to pick up on them in critiques, so is ok.

I think your dream feel gets better which each draft, and from when the child enters the cave it’s much better. The problem I have is the opening section, it’s 3rd person but it feels very distant 3rd person, and because of this it’s lacking emotion. So the opening hook is not working right yet, and this is because I don’t think you’ve captured the child’s voice; which you’ll need to do if you really want to pack a punch into this section.

Thanks, Bowler. It's intentionally distant 3rd, btw, but you probably missed the discussion about that in the comments leading up to this. :) The distance is intended to reflect her psychological trauma. It's not supposed to reflect the child's voice in this latest version either, it's a 17-year-old narrating, not a child. The original 1st-person version was the only time I wrote from the PoV of the child. It's also not an opening scene, so people are already hooked if they get to this point.

But thanks for the comments. Still something to think about there. Knew there would be people who preferred the 1st-person version. :)
 
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