Dialogue and character building

Galacticdefender

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I have an issue with my writing. I focus way to much on description, plot, and setting, and not nearly enough on characters. I can build a decent character over time, and have done so on several occasions, but often I find it very hard to give personality to a character, especially if it is not the main character.

I'm also having difficulty with dialogue. My conversations flow stiffly at times, and I put a few to many "he said" "she said"'s in there. So, mainly I'm seeking a bit of help with dialogue.

People always say to avoid the infodump and say as much as you can say in dialogue, but I'm not good at that. Any useful bits of advice? Sometimes I find an infodump is the only way to go when describing some things, and that is my style of writing, but I need some advice on putting "infodumps" only where they belong, and not in every other paragraph.

I'm much better at description than dialogue, and description through dialogue seems daunting at this point.
 
This is exactly where RPing helped my writing the most. Its almost pure character/character interaction.
RPing is basically just acting with your character as the costume and make up. So acting classes might be helpful as well, but I wouldnt know, I'm too shy to take them.

For an quick taste, come down to the lounge, drop by The Cracked Pot. Very informal style roll playing going on there. Just show up in character, say hi, see what happens.
 
Hah, yes I'm still a sort of active member of an old RP site that has a very small dedicated group of writers. Things move slowly and I only post occasionally though.

I'll check out the lounge shortly.

RPing definitely helped me, and I'm actually pretty good at dialogue once I know my characters, but the entire reason why I combined character building and dialogue questions in one thread is because, once I have a developed character, I can write dialogue well, but early in a story, when I am just introducing the setting and characters, I totally suck at it.

Also dialogue between large groups of characters is hard no matter what. What is a good way to give a supporting character a personality?
 
I like implied personality.
Reading along and some supporting cast member bustles in like they belong, the main cast reacts like they belong, plot is moved naturally, supporting cast bustles out. You never knew they were a Red Shirt.
 
I found my many years of theatre experience has really helped this aspect of my writing. So I suppose my advice is to read a lot of plays as these tend to be far more dialogue driven than a typical novel.

One thing jumped out at me. You said;

"once I have a developed character, I can write dialogue well, but early in a story, when I am just introducing the setting and characters, I totally suck at it"

This suggests a possible sticking point for you. I don't even start writing until I very a pretty clear idea of my characters. The character might develop slowly for the reader, as they learn, but as the writer the character really needs to be fully developed before they even walk in the door for the first time.

One way to help is a simple acting exercise that's widely used to help actors develop their characters. As you begin each new scene ask yourself a few questions about each character;

Where have they been immediately before their appearance in the scene?
What were they doing?
Why have they come here?
What do they want?
Where are they going, and what are they going to do, immediately after the scene ends?

These questions can be applied as readily for your protagonist as for "third guard from the left".

I tend to treat my second and third tier characters with the same respect and effort as my protagonists. Below this, anyone else is essentially an extra. One of my tests for a 2nd or 3rd tier is that I ask myself if I could come up with a story in which they were the protagonist. If I can't, the character needs more work.

I also find that giving each character a particular distinguishing trait or aspect really helps. In my current project, the protagonist is in a special training school with ten major secondary characters as classmates. That's a lot of characters to develop when they're all in the same religious training program, of similar age. But while I have a complex backstory for each of them, there's also a couple of major traits that I always keep in mind;

Elsas - former "pilot", very serious, very protective of Britni
Britni - youngest ever to be accepted for training, exceptionally gifted
Cheli - quiet and determined, harbours a secret that the others students know about, but the protagonist doesn't
Brin - one of the youngest, gifted in bushcraft, and a fast study
Biyancha - natural leader, has medical talents (father is a doctor)
Dabarn - shy and very serious, thinks a lot
Syndir - applied for the training on a dare, pathologically light-hearted
Ayydin - pious and studious fanatic, most dedicated to the regime
Mila - flirty, pretty older girl, undeniably gifted, but not dedicated
Lirus - the oldest, wise beyond his years, like Mila, not particularly dedicated

As you can imagine, scenes with all of them could potentially get chaotic, but because of their characters it becomes quite easy, as I can quickly determine what any of them would likely say. If I feel I need to "info dump" some important information, I arrange an exchange between the protagonist and the appropriate student, so that the scene comes across naturally, rather than like verbal exposition.

I also enhance their dynamics by ensuring they each have their own private relationships independent of the protagonist. Mila and Lirus are romantically involved. Elsas and Britni become close friends. Syndir tutors Brin in archery. Dabarn is a bit of a tag-along. Cheli is close with Britni. Mila and Biyancha are always together. Ayydin disapproves of half the things the other students get up to, particularly Mila's flirty behaviour.

And so on. I treat every single "group" of secondary and tertiary characters the same way. Once you get your head around this you can't help but end up with complex, believable characters.
 
The main thing to remember is: you don't have to tell us their entire life story in the character's opening scenes.

It's really tricky to get character and world development into your scenes in just dialogue and character thoughts without it coming across as telling and infodumps. You want to imply everything about their character with barely a taste of the topic in dialogue. Referencing the topics in passing is more effective than going into deep detail about it, whether it be in narrative or dialogue.

It also depends on the scene. You're not going to be able to build much character in an action scene - although you could show some world and psychological elements like how the character reacts to the action. But if the scene falls flat, then the dialogue will too, so make the scene something rich and interesting with a lot of life and flavour to it.

It's the whole "show, don't tell" rule, and the "less is more" rule, and I find it works best when the characters are involved in some debate or argument, or teasing each other. Quick banter and bickering does a lot more for character development than a wall of text dialogue talking about their life history. Light-hearted banter is a good way to develop supporting characters, I find.

Personality comes from conflict.

The other thing you can do is finish the book then rewrite the first chapters using what you learnt about the characters by the end of the book. That's what I did, and it seemed to work quite well.

In my first book, the first chapter had the protagonist's sister following her around being annoying. It gave me the chance for the sisters to act like sisters and bite at each other's words, giving them plenty of chances to mention different things about each other and the world while still entertaining the reader through humour. Most of the dialogue was quick, snappy statements that dropped hints of bigger issues behind the scenes, or what boy they liked, or the death of their mother, or some of the culture of the world. It was all there in the scene, mentioned in passing, never dropping into anything that I would consider infodumping, and the character development seemed to work quite well. If you want, send me a PM and I could email you the chapter to have a read. It might help.


EDIT: In regards to the 'he said' 'she said' issue. If the dialogue is on the same line as an action that particular character performs, then you don't need the dialogue tag. If the character's are the only two talking, you don't even need the dialogue tags at all after the first two of three bits of dialogue because the reader will be in the flow of switching between heads when they get to each new line. After that, the only time you need to say, he said, again is when a new character joins the conversation.

Once there are three or more characters involved, you either have to use a dialogue tag on just about every line, or you could continue with the action tag trick - which is usually better than saying, he said, on every bit of dialogue.

I pulled this out of the previously mentioned chapter of mine which demonstrates switching between speakers well enough, I think - it even adds a new speaker halfway. Only twice do I use a dialogue tag. The first time to introduce the third character, and the second time just because I thought the action sounded better attached to the dialogue tag than alone.

...

His thumb flicked between the folds, to open the letter again, but Alyce threw herself against him, her fingers digging into his shirt.

Alyce’s pleading face looked up at him. ‘Help me, Papa! Emmi put a lemon peel down my back and I can’t get it out.’

He laughed again. ‘Well that was very cruel of your sister.’

‘I can feel it wriggling around like a worm. Get it out, please.’

‘Why don’t you go get changed? You look like you’ve just become the main ingredient in one of Mrs Potternberry’s plum tarts.’

‘I like Mrs Potternberry’s tarts.’ Alyce’s eyes grew wide. ‘But I don’t want to be in one of them!’

‘Best run along then.’ He patted her back, sending Alyce, flour coated dress, and lemon peel running from the room. He watched her go, scaling the stairs two at a time before vanishing down the hall, then turned back to Emylynn.

‘Is something wrong?’ She asked, with a knowing look in her green eyes, and stepped close.

‘I’ve been summoned to Fort Hastye. I’ll have to leave immediately.’

‘Is it bad?’

‘I don’t know,’ he said, and shrugged.

A sad look crossed her face. ‘What about the pie? Alyce will be upset.’

‘I have no choice.’

...
 
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I have the opposite problem and struggle with description...

For your piece on crits, i would play around with writing a little bit of it in first, maybe, from one of the aliens' pov? Move them through the scene and let them describe it? Also feelings are in vogue, so if one of them had eg vertigo,they might feel a bit dizzy, or maybe they are proud and their chest puffs out?

In terms of dialogue, I think acting it out is probably the only way to check the cadence. But it isn't about what they see,it is what they are doing/ thinking. So why are they standing at that window? If it is just to describe it to us, there is no story. But if they are eg waiting for a ship or someone to arrive, or checking for faults, or one of them is a female and about to give birth to a ten pronged baby then that is their story and what they would talk about.

I would also suggest reading some writers who are strong at quick, sympathetic characterisation. Stephen king springs to mind. For dialogue, maybe someome like Scott Card, maybe Ender's Game, where he uses dialogue to pull the story along pretty effectively.

And experiment? I had a wip that was struggling, i have changed to close third, and the voice is shining through where it was missing before. Try it with one of your characters doing the descriptrion instead of your voice and see what happpens on crits?
 
I can agree with the first suggestion. Since I've been writing in first, my character PoVs have got even deeper than before, and now whenever I switch back to writing 3rd, I can write it just as deep as the first.

Writing in first forces you to write inside the character's head.
 
Some of the posts here are long so I've not read them (I've got to take the dog out and then head on to work in a sec!) but I always find character and dialogue stupidly easy and struggle massively with description. (Is there anybody who's good at both?!)

But, and I don't know if this'll help you, but I don't tend to think about my character's personality. I don't give them a huge background (actually, most of the time I don't even know their background when I start writing them!). All I do is start with a feeling. Like, I get a 'feel' for a personality in my head. Then I put myself in their shoes, as it were, and just start writing. They tend to take over. Quirks develop. In my collab thing, my character is one hell of a potty mouth - quite inventive curse words too and I have no idea where it came from.

So, my suggestion is to stop over thinking it, stop worrying about what their personality is and just work on a gut feeling.
 
I want to second Warren Paul's advice about revealing character gradually and naturally. You'd be surprised how little you need to actually put in to get across character to a reader. And don't forget you can learn a lot about a character from what other characters say about them, how they act around them, etc.

Take this exchange;

‘Do you always do what your friends dare?’ Mílá asked, her gaze calculating.
‘Mostly,’ Syndir admitted. ‘Although this time I didn’t really have a choice. It was this, or sleep with Bélúrn’s sister.’
‘You chose this over sex?’ Mílá demanded.
‘You haven’t seen Bélúrn’s sister.’
Ayydin rose and snatched up his plate. ‘I’m going to study in the library,’ he announced indignantly.
Elsàs watched the youth storm off. ‘What’s his problem?’
Syndir grinned. ‘He’s just devoted.’
‘Why didn’t he join the priests?’ Bïyánchá wondered.
‘We all serve Ibrihá, in our own way,’ a quiet voice remarked.
All eyes turned to the far end of the table, where the girl called Chëlï sat alone, toying with her food. Calan’s classmates became serious.
Even Syndir’s grin faded from his face. ‘I might go practise my archery a bit more,’ he mumbled.
Brin leaped to his feet. ‘Can I come too?’
 
I always recommend reading "Save the Cat".

I thought I was actually really good at writing dialogue and character - just struggling with the other bits. Read Save the Cat and realised I'd completely missed the point of it all.

IMO, creating real characters is not about creating backstory, mannerisms, and personality, but instead about personal conflict. Everything else is dressing. Do both well and you should have brilliant characters.

A basic understanding of how to use conflict will influence not only your character building and dialogue writing, but also your structure and plotting and narrative voice.

IMO. :)
 
I always recommend reading "Save the Cat".

I thought I was actually really good at writing dialogue and character - just struggling with the other bits. Read Save the Cat and realised I'd completely missed the point of it all.

IMO, creating real characters is not about creating backstory, mannerisms, and personality, but instead about personal conflict. Everything else is dressing. Do both well and you should have brilliant characters.

A basic understanding of how to use conflict will influence not only your character building and dialogue writing, but also your structure and plotting and narrative voice.

IMO. :)


Conflict is the very foundation of drama after all. Although I would add that backstory and personality informs conflict for realistic characters. I do psych tests "as" my main characters to create personality maps for them, and I've found these to be invaluable for determining where the conflict between characters lies, and where they find common ground. I don't recommend doing that for secondary characters though, as it's an enormous amount of work.
 
For how to introduce a character quickly I recommend watching Dolly Parton videos on youtube - she is exceptional at building a character in just a few words and it is much easier than studying an entire Shakespeare play.

With dialogue I find having a clear view in my mind of my character and settings helps. What the character says is often less important than what they are doing whilst saying it. I use scrapbooks with google images for settings, although for my fantasy it sometimes requires my very limited art skills. For the characters I 'cast' the main ones with actors that I can stalk round YouTube, noting their body language and quirks of speech. Also pulling characters out of context and writing scenes with them bowling, ice skating, clothes shopping also helps to get to know them.

Once I have done that building the characters and their dialogue flows easily because I know what they are going to do and what they will say in a given situation. I can send you an internet link to a scrapbook for one of my mystery stories if you like? The fantasy ones are on paper.
 
This is a very big subject. However, a few brief thoughts:

At the risk of sounding pretentious, I think dialogue is the expression of a character’s ideas (emotions, plans etc) through the filter of the basic character himself (intelligence, wisdom, bravery and other D&D stats). In other words, what sort of thing would this person say, and how would he go about saying it?

Plot often generates character, or at least the start of characters: “this guy has to be a knight”. Say the plot requires him to lose a fight. Why did he lose it? “This knight is not as skilled as his opponent”. So is he young and overconfident, old and doddery, or what? “This old knight is too physically weak, and so lost the fight”. What does he think about that – or is he even aware of it? “This old knight is too weak, so he loses fights, but he puts it down to a run of bad luck”. (And that’s almost a story in itself. “An old knight, worried about his bad luck, goes on a pilgrimage to a shrine. On the way, he slowly comes to terms with the fact that he’s no longer the man he was.” Of course, there’d also be an epic quest involving huge battles, a billion extras and some gratuitously hideous deaths. This is fantasy, after all…)

Now we get to dialogue. Say this old knight has to explain himself. It’s unlikely that he is going to flatly state the situation. How does he feel about his bad luck? Does it make him angry, depressed? And if he was going to explain it, how would he do it? Presumably, since he’s a knight, he’s comparatively high in society (at least not a peasant). So he might sound reasonably posh. Perhaps, given the toughness of his surroundings, he’s reluctant to admit weakness. So he will need to talk like a man who is fairly posh, too tough or proud to admit weakness, but not necessarily particularly self-aware. (As to how that might sound, you could do worse than watch a few old war films).

It’s this level of detail that takes us out of stereotype and into character. “Pompous old knight” is fairly familiar stuff (probably has large whiskers and trouble getting his stomach into his armour), but good dialogue will help readers get some way into the character’s head, because good dialogue comes from the character himself. So, very much off the top of my head:

“How are you, Sir Vaylance the Sentinel?”
“Ah, I’ve been worse. I took a couple of hits at a tourney recently: I’ve had some bad luck on the practice-ground, too. But nothing serious. Can’t complain, really. Do you think it’s cold out here? Winter seems to come earlier every year!” And then, because body language is indeed important, he glances away, instinctively wanting to be somewhere else.
 
Plot often generates character, or at least the start of characters.

And I'm sure, to take I Brian's definition of writers, the gardeners have: characters generating plot :)*.

But I like your approach that you detailed - it chimes with how I attempt it.

As well as providing the tools for building up complex and compelling characters, I think dialogue gives you, the writer, a wonderful yardstick for judging if your writing is flabby or infodumping. When you have a finished scene - go over the dialogue. Does it look right?

Sure dialogue in fiction is not meant to be natural, but think logically: in a very fast-paced action scene, your characters are unlikely to be trading huge long paragraphs at each other as if they were at genteel dinner party; if you have a scene where two old friends meet after years of absence, then one instantly launches into a ten page monologue, that'll come across as really odd; Characters who talk in conversations like manuals or history books should be 'instructed' to cut down and get to the real point quickly ;)

Also, like descriptive passages, I also believe it pays to aim for brevity in dialogue (although of course there is nothing wrong with the occasional long speech or discussion...)

--------------------------------


*There are times however, when I generate plot and character simultaneously, practically complete, and almost perfect - in an instant. Like an atomic bomb flash illuminating a scene in the tiniest and most intricate level of detail...
 
My thoughts...

One way that was suggested to me and I used as a starting point is to imagine yourself as a chat show host or someone like that and then in your head interview your character. Write down a bunch of questions - where did you grow up, what sort of income and family life was there, do you have family, who are your best friends, who dont you like, what do you want, what do you need/what motivates you, what is your favourite food/drink, what do you do for fun, do you watch/play sport, any past romances? What is your most embarrasing moment, what is a secret of yours, who would you share that secret with etc. Then you can draw on the answers you come up with for consistency and to give you idedas when presenting your character with situations in the story.

Particularly important are the what does your character want and what does he need. What he wants is something that he has an spirational goal towards and will concsiously work towards, but what he needs is something out of control and something his subconscious will drive him towards, wether he is aware of it or not. You can use these to provide consistent responses to the problems and decisions they will face through the story.

Another thing you mention about you can get there in the end. I am much the same, my characters change as im writing and I get to flesh out more and more detail throgh familiarity of writing them. So when the rewrite comes around, I apply the now fully fleshed out character to the early parts of the story as part of the process of improving the work.
 
I do role playing in my head, picture the scene and try to view it from the characters POV. Sometimes that's only a an hour or so of thought, other times it can take days. So I day dream a lot.

I then write the section, review and leave it for a few days. Read it again, and realise just how crap it is, and edit again, again and on and on. There is no such thing as natural dialogue. The information in character conversations is carefully polished and planned, as is the banter, jokes and actions. Doing descriptions, setting suns etc. flows easily for me, the real graft is dialogue. But when it reads right and you know it, then all the effort is worth while.

Keep at the character inter-actions, its a challange ok.
 
What is a good way to introduce a description of a character's physical attributes, such as skin tone/facial features? Should I describe it from another character's point of view? I'm trying to limit my infodumps, but I'm finding difficulty with things like this. Instead of just saying "the character looks like this", how should I make it flow better without just throwing info at the reader?
 
For things like skin colour and eye colour and other facial features, you don't necessarily have to mention these features. More often the reader is quite happy to picture their own version of the character in their minds. But if you wanted to mention skin colour you could disguise the description in dialogue, unless you aren't comfortable writing a character that made what might be considered racist comments depending on how it's handled.

Unless you can describe them from another PoV, you have to involve their physical attributes in actions. For instance, if I wrote a female character and I wanted to mention her hair, I could have wind blowing it and the hair getting in her way, her eyes, or something. That would give a natural prompt for her to mention it, and what colour it was. This is harder to do for male characters though, considering they usually don't have long hair.

Maybe a character got sunburnt and by accident brushes their skin. That could give you a natural prompt for them to look at say their arm and think about how the sunburn made it look compared to normal.

If the character is alien and has a tail, they could twitch it when nervous, or it could get caught in something. Same goes for if they are like an angel demon, or some kind of bird-like race and have wings.

For things like clothing. This can usually be handled in a dressing scene, or maybe the character has a nervous habit of fiddling with their clothes, which could naturally bring attention to it.
 

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