Dialogue and character building

[hopewrites]

I would trickle it in.
Its not the information in the infodumps that people are against. Its just when information comes in blocks too big to fully digest that they become infodumps. Seeing your characters from another characters perspective is fine.
I dont mind being told what characters look like, espically if it's dribbled in amongst the speach tags. (I like speach tags even in long conversations because sometimes I get the conversation wrong, and thing someone has said something that someone else said. I dont necessarily need to be told "he said" "she said" but if I get a definte "this person" at the close of the "" then I know I'm still following the dialog correctly.)

 

[Galacticdefender]

For things like skin colour and eye colour and other facial features, you don't necessarily have to mention these features. More often the reader is quite happy to picture their own version of the character in their minds. But if you wanted to mention skin colour you could disguise the description in dialogue, unless you aren't comfortable writing a character that made what might be considered racist comments depending on how it's handled.

Unless you can describe them from another PoV, you have to involve their physical attributes in actions. For instance, if I wrote a female character and I wanted to mention her hair, I could have wind blowing it and the hair getting in her way, her eyes, or something. That would give a natural prompt for her to mention it, and what colour it was. This is harder to do for male characters though, considering they usually don't have long hair.

Maybe a character got sunburnt and by accident brushes their skin. That could give you a natural prompt for them to look at say their arm and think about how the sunburn made it look compared to normal.

If the character is alien and has a tail, they could twitch it when nervous, or it could get caught in something. Same goes for if they are like an angel demon, or some kind of bird-like race and have wings.

For things like clothing. This can usually be handled in a dressing scene, or maybe the character has a nervous habit of fiddling with their clothes, which could naturally bring attention to it.

Well actually the reason I want to mention skin color is because the characters are aliens with a greyish-blue skin tone. I am having trouble finding an opportunity to say that. And most of them have long white hair too. I like the idea of it blowing in the wind; that will fit perfectly with a scene from the piece I have up on crits.

 

[Warren_Paul]

In regards to skin colour, it doesn't directly help getting across an unusual colour like that, but you can make it clear to the reader that their skin colour isn't normal by doing something like what I did to describe the skin colour of my protagonist without her saying it herself:

Nikora slid into the pool adjacent mine, too good to share, yet her gaze still looked me up and down, as if deciding on a fine cut of meat at the Blackbridge Market. She sniffed. ‘Be honest, Mika. Who would want to bond themselves to such a pasty-skinned girl?’

Mika frowned, and hummed as if considering an answer to the question. A moment later her frown turned into a mischievous grin. Those eyes of hers looked dangerous; I didn’t trust them one bit and started to edge away.

It implies that Nikora and Mika are not pale-skinned like the protagonist is. That only works though if there are other people than the blue-skinned involved in the scene.



EDIT: In regards to your critique scene, it wouldn't be that difficult to pull off. What I'd suggest doing is create a reason for Nanrik to consider something about Riin, so that he looks at Riin and notices the lights from the Worldship reflecting off his blue skin or something like that. By describing Riin's skin as being that colour, the reader will likely assume Nanrik is as well. But don't overdo the description. Simply mention blue skin and that's it. If you want to give more detail - like small bumps, horns, or something - find another time to do it and concentrate of another part of their skin the second time around.

 

[hopewrites]

(Someone's) skin darkend from blueish to almost black with (emotion).

easy to slip in.

 

[Reivax26]

My problem isn't dialogue. Mine is the fact that I infodump and don't realize that I am doing it until I go back and read what I have typed.

There is a delicate balance between dialogue and description. I think its something that every writer or aspiring writer deals with.

 

[Warren_Paul]

There is a delicate balance between dialogue and description. I think its something that every writer or aspiring writer deals with.

Indeed. And the other problem comes from the fact that the readers might not understand why you mention details that you do. As the writer, we understand that all this 'excessive' detail has a purpose in the bigger picture of things, but for the reader, reading the book for the first time, they are going to think it's padding, or needless information. Not until they get to the end of the story, and see everything put in place, and then read through the book again will they realise all those details had a purpose to being there.

It's a can't win situation to a certain extent. Without that "info-dumping", the point may not sufficiently be made for the reader to understand, but with it, the reader gets swamped with what they consider padding and becomes bored.

 

[hopewrites]

I completely disagree with your conclusion, while agreeing with some of your supporting statements.
As I said, its only infodumping if the information given supersedes the readers ability to digest it. This is why demographics are important. Target audience decides how much info is too much.

As writers, aspiring or otherwise, we are out to tell our stories so that they will be heard. That means parceling out all the necessary information at an appropriate pace for reader consumption and enjoyment.

The rules of writing are all subject to good story telling and may be bent and flexed to that end. They are broken only if manipulated in the service of the writer and/or their ego rather than in service of the story.

The moment its excessive its not serving the story. True infodumping will hinder rather than help a thought.
Please don't confuse exposition and infodumping. Or vise-versa.

 

[Bowler1]

Try pulling books off your shelves and instead of reading them, study them; look at what published authors have done and question what they’re doing. Pick authors you like style wise, and compare their style to what you’re doing. I’ve done this myself, and you’ll learn a lot from the exercise. As you learn more reading will never be the same again and I can’t read a book now without pulling myself up and wondering, would I have typed that line like that?

My tolerance for badly written books is very low now, a side affect of being a Chrons member – good books are hard to come by. So my reading has suffered and books disappear under my bed half read (I’d guess half of the books I start reading end this way) when the poor prose finally wears me down.

 

[Warren_Paul]

As writers, aspiring or otherwise, we are out to tell our stories so that they will be heard. That means parceling out all the necessary information at an appropriate pace for reader consumption and enjoyment.

The moment its excessive its not serving the story. True infodumping will hinder rather than help a thought.
Please don't confuse exposition and infodumping. Or vise-versa.

Ah, but everybody has a different opinion of what is "excessive" but to be honest, I think we are not chasing the same rabbit here. I was talking about something a bit different to info-dumping and exposition, although often included as such. Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. In fact, what I was getting at was parcelling it out in little details - so little that they get missed or considered irrelevant.

What I meant by "excessive" is anything that doesn't seem to serve a purpose. I'm talking about all those little details or scenes you add that people think aren't needed at first glance, when really, they are, but the reader just doesn't understand yet - but they will eventually. They always seem to get flagged in critiques as padding. Chekhov guns, subtle foreshadowing, background details that are used to build great mysteries in the story for readers to think about... there seems to be a trend to bundle them in with info-dumping and call them unnecessary detail.

It's quite sad really, that people don't notice they are clues and hints of greater things, and don't think about what they could mean. Have readers as a whole got lazy? Do we not like to figure out little puzzles any more? Or is GRRM the only one allowed to make us think and create theories about his characters based off those details?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure this is getting way off topic here....

 

[Abernovo]

Well actually the reason I want to mention skin color is because the characters are aliens with a greyish-blue skin tone. I am having trouble finding an opportunity to say that. And most of them have long white hair too. I like the idea of it blowing in the wind; that will fit perfectly with a scene from the piece I have up on crits.

One way you might consider slipping it in is through situation and/or comparison, such as Hope's suggestion of using emotion, below. The idea of pigmentation shifts appeals to me, as well.

(Someone's) skin darkened from blueish to almost black with (emotion).

Or you could have 'the harsh sunlight was bleaching his normally blue skin'; 'in the dark room, her blue skin blended into the shadows, making her almost invisible'.

So their skin is grey-blue, but not in this situation, because something's causing it to appear different. It's similar to 'his blue eyes were sparkling as he smiled' - the actions of smiling and sparkling eyes carry the story forward, but the fact that they're blue has been slipped in. Not good examples, but hopefully they'll do.
Best of luck.

 

[allmywires]

What I meant by "excessive" is anything that doesn't seem to serve a purpose. I'm talking about all those little details or scenes you add that people think aren't needed at first glance, when really, they are, but the reader just doesn't understand yet - but they will eventually. They always seem to get flagged in critiques as padding. Chekhov guns, subtle foreshadowing, background details that are used to build great mysteries in the story for readers to think about... there seems to be a trend to bundle them in with info-dumping and call them unnecessary detail.

It's quite sad really, that people don't notice they are clues and hints of greater things, and don't think about what they could mean. Have readers as a whole got lazy? Do we not like to figure out little puzzles any more? Or is GRRM the only one allowed to make us think and create theories about his characters based off those details?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure this is getting way off topic here....

Oh, that's a whole other thread Warren, but I agree with you. It seems like (at least some of) the mystery and thrill of writing is being lost there. I love giving people clues, as I'm sure all of us do, but I wonder sometimes now if I'm being too heavy-handed with them.

(I do have a particularly subtle one in the WIP at the moment that I'm very proud of though)

 

[Bowler1]

I’m going to go off piste as well and join in.

Breadcrumbs – Lots of little bits scattered through your writing to give the reader clues, to direct (mis-direct) the reader as you the writer want. Or, depending on style, slices of bread for the reader – but no matter how hungry we are we can’t swallow a whole loaf of bread in one go – large chunks of info-dumping. Our reader clues should disappear into the writing and only become apparent at the end of the book. Easier said than done of course.

Shogun comes to mind. The character was Shogun by the end of the book, but all through the book he lied. He kept saying he never wanted to be Shogun, but there were loads of clues. Yet the first time I read the book, I was surprised.

 

[prizzley]

So, my suggestion is to stop over thinking it

Just do it. I promise you dialogue, description and any other aspect does improve with practice. I thought I could avoid too much dialogue because my protagonist isn't a talker, but one of his friends won't shut up so I've written a lot (and then taking great chunks out again). Just try to keep a balance, too much talk is as bad as too little.

 

[nubins]

I sometimes wonder how to do this and so this is quite interesting to me. I do have a problem with the race side of things. I have a character who is dark skinned and I feel like I should point that out.. but then realised.. why bother.. i dont have to point out anyone elses .. is that a form of passive racism? I'm not sure, I hope not but I guess it's a human trait. In my head he is, but.. it makes no difference to the story or the plot that anyone has any particular skin colour (of the humans anyway) so I just decided not to mention anything at all about that kind of thing.

But there are aliens. A little easier for me though as the story im doing deals with first contact, so you would expect a descriptive since it's the first time humans have encountered aliens.

When reading books I dont think i've ever felt there was a problem when the author has simply given the information out, usually embelished as has been suggested above .. "his skin was an unusually pale green for his species, the result of his upbringing in the far northern reaches" or something like that. Or describe them from the other characters perspective "She found herself staring into his deep blue eyes without even realising it..." etc.

When trying the breadcrumb approach I've done things like had the character looking at themselves in the mirror in the morning or the evening, before work or after an event. Whilst they are having thinking time have the character stare at themselves .. something like : 'Splashing cold water over his face he caught himself in the mirror, his skin was unusually pale, his eyes darker than usual, his hair a mess. He looked as tired as he felt. He pressed more water into the stubble on his jaw, the coolness was pleasant..."

I dont know if it helps but it was the only way I could work out how to give an idea about what the general facial features of my main character were (the above is not what I wrote but similar) .. caucasion, stubble, dark eyes. His trim fitting uniform would give an indication that he was in good shape later on and his rank and station would indicate his approximate age. The entire scene was there just to give some ideas about his look.

 

[Galacticdefender]

Ah, but everybody has a different opinion of what is "excessive" but to be honest, I think we are not chasing the same rabbit here. I was talking about something a bit different to info-dumping and exposition, although often included as such. Maybe I didn't explain myself properly. In fact, what I was getting at was parcelling it out in little details - so little that they get missed or considered irrelevant.

What I meant by "excessive" is anything that doesn't seem to serve a purpose. I'm talking about all those little details or scenes you add that people think aren't needed at first glance, when really, they are, but the reader just doesn't understand yet - but they will eventually. They always seem to get flagged in critiques as padding. Chekhov guns, subtle foreshadowing, background details that are used to build great mysteries in the story for readers to think about... there seems to be a trend to bundle them in with info-dumping and call them unnecessary detail.

It's quite sad really, that people don't notice they are clues and hints of greater things, and don't think about what they could mean. Have readers as a whole got lazy? Do we not like to figure out little puzzles any more? Or is GRRM the only one allowed to make us think and create theories about his characters based off those details?

Anyway, I'm pretty sure this is getting way off topic here....

In Alastair Reynolds's Revelation Space books, he often goes on and on describing a setting, fleshing out every single little detail. I think a lot of people would consider parts of Revelations Space and Redemption Ark to be uneccesarry bits of exposition, but I enjoy every little bit of Al's world building "infodumps". They make the world seem real, and they give the characters a universe to be part of. I like having the information presented to me and described fully (probably why I am taken aback when people think Tolkein's style is dry), but I guess most people don't like this sort of style.

And the subject of race when it comes to humans in my space opera universe is sort of explained. The main setting is so far in the future that humans really have no races anymore, and have become quite homogeneous. To point out this fact I will occasionally say something like "She had hints of [Insert ethnicity] facial structure" or something, but I do it with many characters, even pointing out that a character has hints of caucasian features, which I hope cements the picture that humanity is not "white" as most people probably imagine in space opera settings.

As for language, everyone speaks a strange mixture of old earth languages and even some alien languages, all thrown together into the language called "Galactic Basic". I point this out by using greetings from different languages, or pointing out that someone is not speaking Galactic Basic. So I guess I have used the strategy of comparison for describing this aspect of my universe.

(By the way, none of that applies to the story I have on crits as it is set many, many thousands of years before humanity even invented the wheel. Just some stuff I wanted to throw out for some reason.)