Astonishing Essay on Prince of Thorns

[Nerds_feather]

Apologies for the title, but to be honest I wasn't sure what else to call this thread. If you haven't already, please read E.M. Edwards' review of Prince of Thorns by Mark Lawrence. It's long, and about a book I haven't read, but I'm posting it because I think it's an extraordinary piece of literary criticism, and one with far-reaching implications beyond the book in question.

The questions I would like to pose to Chrons readers are:

• If you have read Prince of Thorns, what is your response to the substance of the review?
• How do you feel about the "grimdark" turn in fantasy, generally?
• Specifically, how do you feel about the use of rape in fantasy?
• What about treatments of race?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I read Prince of Thorns, mainly because of the thread on the chrons, and it was in the library one day.

I liked the writing; it was crisp, easy to read and very, very close in point of view. I found Jorg horrifyingly interesting. I thought the world itself was a nice take on the fantasy genre.

I didn't like the women characters in the book. I grant it was, perhaps, done this way to reflect Jorg's inability to relate to women, but it left a bitter taste for me. However, I think it's quite important to point out that none of the secondary characters are fleshed out, so the women are not that different to that extent.

In terms of the dreaded magical negro: Nuban did read as that trope to me. I hadn't come across the term before I read about Prince of Thorns, but having done so would have to agree. Ironically, perhaps, as the Nuban is one of the most filled-out secondary characters.

And then the rape and misogony... I think, again, that murder, torture (as referenced in the article) and general heinousness are all treated in the same way as rape, and as such there might be an element of parity playing there. But, in general, it left a(nother) bitter taste in my mouth.

I wouldn't say I enjoyed the book, but I won't forget it. I won't be reading the sequels, but I would urge people to make their own minds up about it. Part of the challenges presented are that it is written very closely to Jorg's voice, and whether they are Lawrence's views I have no idea, but they certainly appear to be Jorg's.

 

[allmywires]

Thanks for this, Nerdsfeather. A very interesting read even though I've never read the book in question. This quote from the author does make me shake my head, though:

As far as ‘sisters’ go, no, none of those. I’ve never felt that every fantasy book should be compelled to set out a balanced modern view of how we’d like the world we live in to be, or even how the world we live in is. I see books as a place to explore rather than to politic. There’s a huge range on offer and if you’re looking for a book with equal numbers of male & female characters, an entirely female cast, or perhaps some mix of hermaphrodites and asexual jellies, it’s all out there to be discovered. For my part I go where my story takes me.

Bolded because just, sigh.

 

[HareBrain]

I found the essay interesting too, though I haven't read the book (and never had any desire to). I do think (as was raised on another thread) calling the MC "Avatar Jorg" suggests a lack of even-handedness. True, it might follow from the argument that the novel is basically a prose version of a first-person shooter, but Edwards claims he uses the term to avoid having to type out Jorg's full name, which of course he doesn't have to do at all.

And I think it's a bit dubious to base so much of his argument on this view of novel-as-game, when he doesn't bring any evidence that Lawrence is or was a gamer (though that doesn't necessarily preclude him being infused with the culture, though this itself seems unlikely if, as he claims, he has next to no interest in fantasy).

Anyway, it's a useful reminder of tendencies we might want to beware of in our own work.

 

[Dozmonic]

I found the essay dull and needlessly lengthy.

Why would the writer of it expect the book to have racial and sexual equality? At the end of the day, the book is about an adolescent in a post apocalyptic world. This adolescent is socially manipulative, emotionally scarred and something of a genius. If you're going into every book expecting a balanced view point then you're a fool. Books shouldn't deliver that, not by a long shot. You need people writing everything at every level conceivable - not some muddy middleground that's acceptable to everyone.

I didn't come out of reading the book feeling that rape was acceptable, or racism was a great thing. No more than I come out of playing Super Mario thinking that mushrooms should be pounced upon. It's a story. Fiction.

At the end of the day, the shortcomings of the book are the shortcomings of the reader. You read into it exactly what you will, but to assume an author put it there is just baffling.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think it makes for an excellent piece of criticism, which raises issues that apply across the genre.

However, the key defence Lawrence makes, of it being heavily influenced by Burgess' "A Clockwork Orange", is not refuted.

Therefore the essay explicitly tells us that this novel does exactly as the author intended - to shock and offend on some level, without offering standard devices of redemption or introspection.

Jorg is therefore an antagonist made protagonist, pure and simple.

In that sense, I would argue the book is indeed a piece of art that achieves its objective.

However, the most valuable aspect of the review, IMO, is to demonstrate - using Prince of Thorns as an example - of the weaknesses that plague speculative fiction genre writing.

Namely, the inability to create realistic characters with realistic motivations, especially where these relate to race, gender, and sexuality.

However, I think writers are trying to tackle this, and that fantasy is finally growing up - breaking free of the shadow of Tolkien - and potentially going to be more accessible to a wider audience.

2c.

 

[Anne Lyle]

However, the most valuable aspect of the review, IMO, is to demonstrate - using Prince of Thorns as an example - of the weaknesses that plague speculative fiction genre writing.

Namely, the inability to create realistic characters with realistic motivations, especially where these relate to race, gender, and sexuality.

However, I think writers are trying to tackle this, and that fantasy is finally growing up - breaking free of the shadow of Tolkien - and potentially going to be more accessible to a wider audience.

2c.

"Inability"? I'd like to point you at several decades' worth of SF that explores gender and sexuality in ways that mainstream fiction never can. The fact that popular epic fantasy has been over-reliant on a 60-year-old book by a professor educated in all-male establishments shouldn't be used as a stick to beat the rest of the genre.

"Swordspoint" by Ellen Kushner is 25 years old - the momentum in fantasy has been building for a long time...

/end rant

 

[Montero]

With regard to Anne's point, Juliet McKenna had a rather relevant post on this in her blog the other week.

See blog text here: http://www.julietemckenna.com/?p=992

Part of it quoted here for convenience. (To explain the background, her paperback backlist, is being re-released in eBook.)

Juliet McKenna:
"
This morning I am particularly taken with this review of The Thief’s Gamble over at Fantasy Review Barn. Not because it’s a gushing outpouring of praise – it gives the book three and a half stars. Fair enough, everyone’s entitled to their opinion and the reviewer here has read the book thoroughly and thoughtfully.
What really makes me smile is reading “I was fine with the generic feel of it, but be aware that no new ground was broken here.” and ” It hits all the nice fantasy tropes, and doesn’t see any reason to bend them, break them, or subvert them.”
Okay, that’s the view of this book by a new reader in 2013. Back in 1999, the reviews said things like “pleasing to find a female lead who’s properly representative rather than the usual tepid mix of heroine and victim.” and ” a beautifully drawn world with a rich history, interesting and realistic characters and a plot that drags you along at breakneck speed.”, “What’s different and interesting about this book is what Ms McKenna does with it.” And more besides.
So why am I smiling? Because this shows just how far the epic fantasy genre has grown and developed in this past decade and more. Readers are used to so much more in terms of realism and depth of plot and characterisation, more complex themes and subtext."

 

[Stephen Palmer]

"Inability"? I'd like to point you at several decades' worth of SF that explores gender and sexuality in ways that mainstream fiction never can. The fact that popular epic fantasy has been over-reliant on a 60-year-old book by a professor educated in all-male establishments shouldn't be used as a stick to beat the rest of the genre.

"Swordspoint" by Ellen Kushner is 25 years old - the momentum in fantasy has been building for a long time...

/end rant

Not to mention Gwyneth Jones...

 

[iansales]

However, the key defence Lawrence makes, of it being heavily influenced by Burgess' "A Clockwork Orange", is not refuted.

In which case, Lawrence has completely misunderstood the point of A Clockwork Orange.

 

[Toby Frost]

While, overall, the essay is well-argued and makes interesting points, I too found the gamer (by which I assume it means computer game player) reference a bit hard to follow. For one thing, you can play games such as Fallout or Skyrim (both of which are on occasion very bloody) in a heroic way, causing a lot of mayhem but ultimately staying "lawful good". The implication in the essay is that you just slaughter everyone and then win. Perhaps the passages quoted, in which the hero talks of life being a game he has to win, are the intended link to the avatar comments, but I don't see that either: I'm sure a lot of vicious loonies regard life as one long struggle between combatants (along with a lot of people who are pointlessly competitive but not psychotic). To add confusion to it all, the article seems to imply a link between computer-game-players and the sad, women-hating losers who seem to vent their failure with girls on various internet sites, which feels wrong.

Anyhow, unless the author makes personal statements about politics or similar real-world stuff, then it's probably wrong to to try to conclude that he's of X viewpoint, especially on the basis of one novel. The review certainly tears into the author over the portrayal of the black character, but makes no real comment about the author except "He didn't do this well". I think this is the right way to go about criticism.

Very briefly, my thoughts on "Dark" in fantasy and any other type of books run like this (and I'm not talking about Prince of Thorns, which I've not read). A certain degree of realism is necessary in fiction. However, good characterisation, plot and setting is far, far more important than fake "tough talk". For one thing, real life isn't just one long hard deal, and anyone who portrays it as such will sound like an adolescent who's just been told that he has to earn his pocket money. Wretched medieval peasants used to celebrate the arrival of Spring, despite their brief, squalid lives (perhaps all the more so because they were so brief and squalid). Soldiers make jokes, after all, even if the jokes are black comedy. Also, there are no short cuts to quality. How many pulp crime writers were there, putting out tough noir stories? The ones worth remembering now are worth remembering because they wrote well, not because of the level of random death they threw in.

 

[Connavar]

I have read this before and i agree there is troubling issue of race, building negative stereotype in Nuban, the way he is used. The rape isnt used badly, there are story reasons to make it work well. Its a crime that happens often in real life and should be used in fiction. Why cant the protoganist be a twisted killer,rapist when he is a brigand and lowlive. I find it boring and lame that all epic fantasy should be judged by some popular ones with shining heroes.

I enjoyed reading about Jorg because it was well told story from his POV and entertaining epic fantasy story. There are many good noir and even literary modern classics by Albert Camus with twisted,unfeeling lead character that makes the book more interesting.

I say dont limit epic fantasy to Tolkein type heroes. Characters like Jorg,Glokta and co make it more interesting to me when they are fun stories to read. I would hate them, judge them if i met in real life but they are only characters in horrible,bleak medevil worlds. Lets not historically change dark ages to fit our modern world views,morality.

 

[allmywires]

In which case, Lawrence has completely misunderstood the point of A Clockwork Orange.

Completely agree. I do believe Anthony Burgess actually disliked the fact that the film adaptation of ACO was so unashamedly violent and sexually depraved; seems Lawrence has taken that side of it, not the book's true meaning. (Of course I'm just basing that on the extracts provided in the article).

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

Completely agree. I do believe Anthony Burgess actually disliked the fact that the film adaptation of ACO was so unashamedly violent and sexually depraved; seems Lawrence has taken that side of it, not the book's true meaning. (Of course I'm just basing that on the extracts provided in the article).

I think we need to put this to bed.

I've never offered A Clockwork Orange as a defence of anything. Thus whether I 'understood' it or not is moot.

I suspect a great many misleading cases can be built on selecting particular paragraphs from a book, but everyone is welcome to play the game.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I've never offered A Clockwork Orange as a defence of anything.

My bad - clumsy wording on my part:
http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/532035-mark-lawrence-7.html#post1649830

 

[Boneman]

I read Prince of Thorns and now King of Thorns, and I'm going to court controversy by asking what all the fuss is about? It's FICTION and it's FANTASY. Every reader is entitled to like or dislike (or even, God forbid, have no feelings either way about) what they see. They can put a book down, throw it away, burn it; or keep it on a shelf and re-read it when the feeling takes them, if they so choose. If fictional characters treat women badly, in character, what grounds is that to criticise the writer? Would Edwards lay the same criticism at Shakespeare for his portrayal of murderers and child killers in his plays? Titus Andronicus??? Lavinia is raped and mutilated by Tamora's two sons and then murdered by her own father to save her further shame...

by I Brian
However, the most valuable aspect of the review, IMO, is to demonstrate - using Prince of Thorns as an example - of the weaknesses that plague speculative fiction genre writing.

Namely, the inability to create realistic characters with realistic motivations, especially where these relate to race, gender, and sexuality.

Sorry Brian, but Jorg's a completely realistic character within his world, with completely realistic motivations, that relate perfectly to the fiction that Lawrence has so masterfully produced. If we go down the path you seem to be advocating (and forgive me if I'm wrong, but that's what I'm reading from this quote) we'll have sanitised, politically correct writing that's boring as hell, and completely unrealistic for the fictional worlds that any writer wishes to create.

What Connavar says sums it up perfectly...

 

[iansales]

I read Prince of Thorns and now King of Thorns, and I'm going to court controversy by asking what all the fuss is about? It's FICTION and it's FANTASY. Every reader is entitled to like or dislike (or even, God forbid, have no feelings either way about) what they see. They can put a book down, throw it away, burn it; or keep it on a shelf and re-read it when the feeling takes them, if they so choose. If fictional characters treat women badly, in character, what grounds is that to criticise the writer? Would Edwards lay the same criticism at Shakespeare for his portrayal of murderers and child killers in his plays? Titus Andronicus??? Lavinia is raped and mutilated by Tamora's two sons and then murdered by her own father to save her further shame...

Actually, that's a fallacious argument. Writers do not as a rule practice baby killing or murder, so when they put it in a story it is clearly in service to the story's needs. But men are sexist, and if they don't work to mitigate that, then those views will end up in their fiction. Trivialising rape by using it as a trope in fantasy is a perfect example of this. Rape is not something that should be used in fiction to merely show a heroine is feisty or demonstrate that the villain is really evil.

 

[Ursa major]

But men are sexist....

Something must have happened with the server, because I was pretty sure I was on the Chrons, but now seem to be on the The Grauniad's website.... I'm sorry, but the purpose of a piece of fiction is not to mitigate the ills of society, and particularly not to pay homage to a rather skewed view of it.


Actually, I'm perfectly willing to say that all men are sexist, and all pale people are racist, but only in the context that all human beings are subject to irrational opinions about other human beings, whatever sex they are and whatever their phenotype. (So yes, women can be sexist, etc.) The only difference (one that the Grauniad clings onto like grim death) is that some human beings benefit from this more than others, and have been doing so for a few (or many, depending on the type of discrimination)consecutive centuries; but we ought to recall that this wasn't always the case**, and won't always be so in the future.


Where you might have more support from me is the need to move away from the apparent attitudes in earlier fiction whose use of various stereotypes was all too apparent. However, when one's fictional universe is not set at Guardian Towers, one cannot populate it with, say, characters resembling that paper's editorial board and be true to the story***.


Oh, and I agree that the rape trope you mention is bad, and not only because of sexism, because it assumes that people will always react in the same way.



** - Well, I'm unaware of any real societies in the past where women were in a dominant position in a state for any length of time. (But that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.)

*** - To be fair, fiction set in any universe would look ridiculous with those characters; after all, the Grauniad often does in this existence when its representatives on Earth climb onto their high horses and fail to notice that they're facing the wrong way (as revealed when their own readers - and I don't mean those visiting from other "news" sites - pull them up for being, at best, rather silly).

 

[iansales]

The term "sexism" is now taken to refer to systemic and institutional sexism. Likewise for "racism". So, by definition all males are sexist and all white people are racist. It differs only in degree and in the efforts each individual personally makes to mitigate their sexism/racism. Writing novels which contain Magical Negros and in which rape is used as a trope only perpetuates both -isms.

Personally, I have no desire to write a novel that half the human race would find offensive for one reason, and the majority of it find offensive for another. Not to mention those who belong to both groups and would find it doubly offensive.

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

Actually, that's a fallacious argument. Writers do not as a rule practice baby killing or murder, so when they put it in a story it is clearly in service to the story's needs. But men are sexist, and if they don't work to mitigate that, then those views will end up in their fiction. Trivialising rape by using it as a trope in fantasy is a perfect example of this. Rape is not something that should be used in fiction to merely show a heroine is feisty or demonstrate that the villain is really evil.

Actually, that's a fallacious argument. Many men have been angry and wished ill upon another, quite a few have at some point been in a fight of some sort. That doesn't preclude including violence or murder in a story. Many men are sexist in some or other degree. That doesn't preclude a story mentioning rape.