Astonishing Essay on Prince of Thorns

[Nerds_feather]

I think the point was Joe agreed with something Nerd believed and thus Nerd cites him as the model for classy responses to criticism.

Wow, all this the personalized attention from a legitimately successful author...I must really be special.

And I wonder, if Joe's response on Terez isn't a "classy response to criticism," then what is? Needling someone on a message board more than a year after he quoted from a negative review written by someone else, while also quoting from a positive review on the same book? I'll suggest it *might* just be the time we put that to rest and move on, and that this *might* be the classy thing for both of us to do. Shall we? I might even read and review Prince of Thorns (or your newest book) with a completely open mind, if we do put this behind us.

(If that offer isn't to your liking, then I'd suggest we just go our separate ways and ignore each other from this point forward.)

 

[Nerds_feather]

Firstly there's nothing classy about not responding to criticism and secondly he does respond. What was "The Value of Grit" if not a lengthy response to criticism of his work for being too gritty.

And it was totally fair.

But I think you may be misunderstanding what was meant by:

If there was a masterclass on how to respond to critics, this would have to be the basis of a full lesson.

See, the assumption there is that there are multiple lessons. Presumably one lesson would be "self-reflection and learning from mistakes." Another might be "responding to criticism you think is unfair" or "sticking up for your principles."

All of these can be done in such a way as to be labeled "the epitome of class." Or, for that matter, anywhere on the continuum from there to "the epitome of classlessness."

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

I'm certainly not labelling anyone that, Mark. which is you assuming intentions that just are not there.

There's a world of difference between "How very dare you suggest my work might be problematic! You're not reading it right, you poopyhead*" and "While I hear what you're saying, I tried to use X, Y and Z to avoid that very problem. Ofc not everyone will see the same things..." or whatever


What makes Joe's response classy is that he listened to what the objection was rather than dismissing it out of hand, considered it and, even if he didn't 100% agree with it, saw that it was a genuine reaction to his words. Then he broke down where he thought he'd failed and how he'd do better next time.

*And yes I have seen several authors do just that. And I get it. It's tempting, and I've wavered that way once or twice myself, and got a bit sorry for myself. Then I gave myself a kick in the pants and realised that my butthurt is not the issue. Who has it worse? White author who is surprised when his stereotypes don't go down well, or POC readers who have to read that all the damn time, who actually subject to bigotry in their daily lives? A little bit of butthurt of my end is nothing in comparison.

Well, I was responding to Nerd. Now you appear to be repeating his nonsensical case though:

"What makes Joe's response classy is that he listened to what the objection was rather than dismissing it out of hand"

To be 'classy' to be 'the model for all response to criticism' to attract such plaudits ... I have to believe that you think there is something particularly unusual about this response. The strong implication being that you think that "dismissing it out of hand" is the normal response.

And what is this assumption based on? Where do you get this 'dismissing it out of hand' from? Apparently from the fact that the other authors are not deciding that they've failed and promising to mend their ways.

And that right there - that's the nonsense. You assume 'dismissing out of hand' on the basis they don't agree with any part of the criticism. That's not dismissing it out of hand - that's NOT AGREEING.

I don't have to agree with part of what someone has said to me in order to not dismiss it out of hand. Dismissing it out of hand means not considering it. I can consider a criticism and wholly reject it. That is not dismissing it out of hand and it has every bit as much right to be considered classy.

Again there is this pervasive assumption that if you don't agree with criticism (of this kind) then you haven't considered it, you're not listening, you're being bloody minded. That's the nonsense. The assumption that if the other person doesn't agree with you it MUST be because they weren't listening, because they didn't really think about it, because they're defensive or 'butthurt' ... that's just exercising the same narrow 'I'm right, I'm the centre of the universe' thinking as you're projecting on your targets. I'm sorry, but it just is.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Can I just make a general point that it's fine to disagree, but let's stay away from anything that may be construed to be personal attacks on other members, please.

As always, all I ask from members is civility - let's keep it that way, thanks.

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

Wow, all this the personalized attention from a legitimately successful author...I must really be special.

And I wonder, if Joe's response on Terez isn't a "classy response to criticism," then what is? Needling someone on a message board more than a year after he quoted from a negative review written by someone else, while also quoting from a positive review on the same book? I'll suggest it *might* just be the time we put that to rest and move on, and that this *might* be the classy thing for both of us to do. Shall we? I might even read and review Prince of Thorns (or your newest book) with a completely open mind, if we do put this behind us.

(If that offer isn't to your liking, then I'd suggest we just go our separate ways and ignore each other from this point forward.)

And you continue your persecution complex with the notion that the only reason I can repeatedly find fault with your arguments is that I am vindictively obsessed with you ... rather than that they are faulty.

 

[Nerds_feather]

And you continue your persecution complex with the notion that the only reason I can repeatedly find fault with your arguments is that I am vindictively obsessed with you ... rather than that they are faulty.

Yeah, okay. Well, 13 pages of this thread, and multiple interactions elsewhere, suggest otherwise, friend.

But tell me you aren't bothered in the slightest by the blog post from January 2013, and I'll be happy to believe you.

Now, shall we move on?

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

And it was totally fair.

But I think you may be misunderstanding what was meant by:



See, the assumption there is that there are multiple lessons. Presumably one lesson would be "self-reflection and learning from mistakes." Another might be "responding to criticism you think is unfair" or "sticking up for your principles."

All of these can be done in such a way as to be labeled "the epitome of class." Or, for that matter, anywhere on the continuum from there to "the epitome of classlessness."

I will admit, I missed that fine distinction. Though I somehow doubt I will ever see you citing someone in similar circumstances _not_ agreeing with the criticism, and deciding to make no changes to their writing, as a classy example that should be the basis for another lesson in the masterclass.

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

Yeah, okay. Well, 13 pages of this thread, and multiple interactions elsewhere, suggest otherwise, friend.

Believe what you wish. If you keep running out stuff I heartily disagree with on a forum I'm active in ... I will offer up the counter view.

We are not friends.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Can I just make a general point that it's fine to disagree, but let's stay away from anything that may be construed to be personal attacks on other members, please.

As always, all I ask from members is civility - let's keep it that way, thanks.

Agreed. Civility is the Chrons' best asset.

 

[Nerds_feather]

I will admit, I missed that fine distinction. Though I somehow doubt I will ever see you citing someone in similar circumstances _not_ agreeing with the criticism, and deciding to make no changes to their writing, as a classy example that should be the basis for another lesson in the masterclass.

Thank you. And I probably should have been clearer as well. See, we're making progress, Mark. I like the new us

What I meant to convey was that it was a very interesting and instructive way of responding to criticism--not that it is the only way or that it is the right way in every situation.

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

But tell me you aren't bothered in the slightest by the blog post from January 2013, and I'll be happy to believe you.

Your blog post? I thought it was badly written and I didn't agree with it. Bothered? That's a movable feast. I was bothered by it raining today.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Your blog post? I thought it was badly written and I didn't agree with it. Bothered? That's a movable feast. I was bothered by it raining today.

I'm glad to hear you say that you aren't bothered by it. Others might look at the "badly written" dig you got in there and conclude otherwise. But I'll take you at your word. After all, it makes no difference to me whether you liked the blog post or not. I'm just happy to move on to this new and exciting phase of our relationship

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

I'm glad to hear you say that you aren't bothered by it. Others might look at the "badly written" dig you got in there and conclude otherwise. But I'm happy to take you at your word.

Perhaps if you're going to take me at my word might do better to read what that word is.

I didn't make any statement on whether I was bothered by it. I simply said that 'bothered' was a very flexible word.

What you might want to consider is how this obvious baiting - unconnected to any actual point - makes you look.

 

[Nerds_feather]

Perhaps if you're going to take me at my word might do better to read what that word is.

I didn't make any statement on whether I was bothered by it. I simply said that 'bothered' was a very flexible word.

What you might want to consider is how this obvious baiting - unconnected to any actual point - makes you look.

Bummer--I quite preferred the implication that being bothered by the blog post was beneath you. It is beneath you, in my opinion.

Regardless, hope we can move past this one day. Thought it might be today, but perhaps not. Enjoy the rest of your week, friend

 

[Mark_Lawrence]

Bummer--I quite preferred the implication that being bothered by the blog post was beneath you. It is beneath you, in my opinion.

Oh well...maybe we can move past this one day, at which point I'll finally sit down and read Prince of Thorns.

That's perhaps not quite the motivator you think it is

I don't participate in this forum to convince people to read my books. I'm entirely happy with you never doing so.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

If I had you both in the same room I'd send you to seperate corners about now. is this getting anywhere?

For what it's worth, I found Joe's piece thoughtful and wasn't too worried if he agreed or not, just that he'd put thought into it. I found the original review limited, but I think the Broken Empire has to be judged as a whole really (I'm on the fence.)

But I'm finding an argument going around in circles less entertaining as the evening goes on...

 

[Nerds_feather]

There's a world of difference between "How very dare you suggest my work might be problematic! You're not reading it right, you poopyhead*" and "While I hear what you're saying, I tried to use X, Y and Z to avoid that very problem. Ofc not everyone will see the same things..." or whatever

What makes Joe's response classy is that he listened to what the objection was rather than dismissing it out of hand, considered it and, even if he didn't 100% agree with it, saw that it was a genuine reaction to his words. Then he broke down where he thought he'd failed and how he'd do better next time.

*And yes I have seen several authors do just that. And I get it (and yes sometimes people just complain for complaining). It's tempting, and I've wavered that way once or twice myself, and got a bit sorry for myself. Then I gave myself a kick in the pants and realised that my butthurt is not the issue. Who has it worse? White author who is surprised when his stereotypes don't go down well, or POC readers who have to read that all the damn time, who actually subject to bigotry in their daily lives? A little bit of butthurt of my end is nothing in comparison.

Very well said.

And I think it's probably important to stress that, as in most things, there is the overt and the covert. I think when we talk about racism, sexism or similar things, there's often an assumption that we're talking about the overt--i.e. outright, purposive prejudice, like you'd find among KKK members. But if we are in the majority and/or the privileged/dominant group, we might just not think about how something looks to another set of eyes until that person points it out to us.

I credit Joe Abercrombie for the way he handled that situation. I'm sure it wasn't the only legitimate way to respond to it, but it was a brilliant response.

 

[Nerds_feather]

That's perhaps not quite the motivator you think it is

I don't participate in this forum to convince people to read my books. I'm entirely happy with you never doing so.

Whether that means anything to you is your business. But it is a motivator for me. I thought your essay for Sarah's Special Needs in Strange Worlds series was wonderful, and since reading it I've hoped we could bury the hatchet--at which point I'll be able to read Prince of Thorns and not worry that my opinions are clouded by our negative interactions.

So how about it, Mark: virtual shake of the hands?

 

[Brian G Turner]

Mark's welcome to reply, after which I'm minded to close this discussion thread - two people repetitively going around in circles does not make for interesting reading.

As this is a thread was originally about one of Mark's books, and posted on Mark's section of the forum, he's welcome to have the last word.

After which, as this thread has meandered into all sorts of digressions - if anyone wants to take up one of more of these, it would be better to fire up a new thread elsewhere on the forums, so we can keep that discussion focused on that topic.