Semi colons in speech/ direct thoughts

[Jo Zebedee]

I've had this mentioned in a couple of crits recently, one where I used a semi in dialogue, one in a character's first thoughts.

Silly question, but why wouldn't there be a semi? If is grammatically right, shouldn't they be used? Or does direct thoughts/ speech change the usage?

Btw i know they're an addiction, and I use wayyyy too many, but I'd love to understand this.

 

[allmywires]

I can't explain it, just that it feels inherently wrong to me. Mainly because to me semicolons are a sign of complex sentence construction, and we often don't think that hard about our words as they're spilling out of our mouths.

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

It's still grammatically correct, sure. But the trouble is you can't hear a semicolon in verbalized speech. That's why it's jarring to see on the page. If someone spoke that dialogue out loud the semicolon would sound like a period or a comma. It's either a pause (comma) or a full stop (period). You don't hear a semicolon as distinct from these.

Edit: cause I'm a nerd I wanted to read up on semicolons and found this rather funny so thought I'd share this from the wiki page on semicolons:

"Some authors have spurned the semicolon throughout their works. Lynne Truss stated that "Samuel Beckett spliced his way merrily through such novels as Molloy and Malone Dies, thumbing his nose at the semicolon all the way," "James Joyce preferred the colon, as more authentically classical; P. G. Wodehouse did an effortlessly marvellous job without it; George Orwell tried to avoid the semicolon completely in Coming up for Air, (1939)," "Martin Amis included just one semicolon in Money (1984)," and "Umberto Eco was congratulated by an academic reader for using no semicolons in The Name of the Rose (1983)."[10]

Kurt Vonnegut in A Man Without a Country (2005) stated: "Here is a lesson in creative writing. First rule: Do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites representing absolutely nothing. All they do is show you've been to college." In response to Vonnegut and Truss, Ben MacIntyre, columnist in The Times (London), wrote: "Americans have long regarded the semi-colon with suspicion, as a genteel, self-conscious, neither-one-thing-nor-the other sort of punctuation mark, with neither the butchness of a full colon nor the flighty promiscuity of the comma. Hemingway and Chandler and Stephen King wouldn’t be seen dead in a ditch with a semi-colon (though Truman Capote might). Real men, goes the unwritten rule of American punctuation, don’t use semi-colons."[11]"

 

[HareBrain]

I have no trouble with them, and use them myself. And I think you can hear them in speech, in that they suggest a pause longer than a comma but not as long as a full-stop. That's my take, anyway.

Having said that, there are places where they would look odd, such as in the dialogue of children. I guess I tend to use them more in the dialogue of characters who would know how to use them anyway. Perhaps. Or maybe I'm wildly inconsistent and make it up as I go along.

 

[The Judge]

I'm sure I do use them in dialogue, though I can't think of any off hand, but like HB it might only be for more educated, or more pretentious, characters. They seem a bit too prissy, somehow, for an illiterate oik. The long dash is my preferred alternative in most dialogue, though.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I have no trouble with them, and use them myself. And I think you can hear them in speech, in that they suggest a pause longer than a comma but not as long as a full-stop. That's my take, anyway.

That would be my take, too.

 

[Abernovo]

It's still grammatically correct, sure. But the trouble is you can't hear a semicolon in verbalized speech. That's why it's jarring to see on the page. If someone spoke that dialogue out loud the semicolon would sound like a period or a comma. It's either a pause (comma) or a full stop (period). You don't hear a semicolon as distinct from these.

Really? Obviously you've never heard my former professor speak.
There are more than two lengths of pause. Be sparing with the semis, sure, but they're perfectly fine to use in speech and direct thought, in my opinion, so long as they're appropriate to the character.

 

[alchemist]

I have no trouble with them, and use them myself. And I think you can hear them in speech, in that they suggest a pause longer than a comma but not as long as a full-stop. That's my take, anyway.

I also concur with this.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Cool, that was my general take on it. Though i did take harebrain's - yes, it was your fault -argument that my fifteen year old streetwise voice wouldn't use it. ( although he will have had a northern irish education and we are most particular about proper grammar. It wasn't my fault i missed the possessive apostrophe unit.)

@ fishbowl: yes, i know they are hated in some quarters, but, for flow, for me, the period/comma argument doesn't work. I do get pulled up on them regularly enough, though, that i now check i am sure it must be a semi.

 

[Bowler1]

I have no trouble with them, and use them myself. And I think you can hear them in speech, in that they suggest a pause longer than a comma but not as long as a full-stop. That's my take, anyway.

Are you willing to share examples for us to pour over and pull apart?

 

[Mouse]

Can we please refer to them as 'semi colons?' I can't take the uh... semi.

*ahem*

I never use them in dialogue. Feels daft somehow.

 

[EricWard]

Yeah, I don't use them in dialogue. Commas and periods serve the job fine. No sense buying a specialized tool when you can use a general one just as effectively.

 

[HareBrain]

Are you willing to share examples for us to pour over and pull apart?

Er ... OK. Here are the first four cases from the section I put up in WG yesterday. It turns out my character Hana uses them a lot ...

‘I understand; it’s sacred. But there’s nowhere private here for you to go.’

‘She hates magic; she’s told me so, more than once.’

‘The Mother is life; she can’t be dead.’

‘I can’t leave Tashi for that long; this morning was bad enough.’

I guess those could easily be replaced with dash, colon or full stop. But semi-colon was what I used instinctively, for better or worse. (I might change a couple of them.)

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Yeah, I don't use them in dialogue. Commas and periods serve the job fine. No sense buying a specialized tool when you can use a general one just as effectively.

Ooooh, that worries me, sorry. They aren't specialized, they are for specific use that isn't the same as a period or comma, and should be seen as an essential tool in the toolbox, surely. Just cos mr king doesn't use them (i will keep an eye out, see if he ever does), I am sure he has them in his big ol' toolbox, just in case.

Um, is this a us/uk thing? This has occurred to me before, that they are more commonly used in the uk? Anyone know?

Sorry, to give an example, one of the reasons I use so many is that Hex has battered the term I thought out of me, but in third it isn't as easy to link internal thoughts to action as in her breathy first style. Therefore I join actions to the linked internal thought with semis. A period or comma can't do that.

Ahem, my apologies, i will go to the back of the room and flick paper at people.

Harebrain's examples, i would use a semi for 1, 2 and 3. I hesitated on one, but nothing else gives the same meaning. A comma doesn't state the sacred as seperate, yet linked, a full stop lacks elegance and a run on changes the meaning. 4 could be a period but is more elegant as a semi, imho.

 

[alchemist]

In HareBrain's examples, I'd definitely use semi colons for nos. 1 and 3, maybe for no. 4, and a full stop for no. 2. Let's take a vote!

 

[Biskit]

The long dash is my preferred alternative in most dialogue, though.

I prefer the long dash. Maybe it's my eye-sight, or I need to clean my screen more often, but I loathe semi-colons just because I end up staring to make sure it's really there, not a colon mated to a dead midge, or a comma with a smudge hanging around above it.
There's no doubt with the long dash, and whatever my screen/eye issues, I don't confuse it with a hyphen.

 

[allmywires]

In all your examples, HB, I'd have used a full stop or a dash. Perhaps it's because for my work I'm not allowed to use semicolons/colons and that's transcribing speech, so it's bled into my writing. It's always felt wrong though on one level or another. I've now been trying to think about it for several minutes and I absolutely don't understand why you'd want to use them when they look so wrong, but then can't for the life of me explain why I think they look so wrong.

Perhaps I think they look a little archaic for regular speech? Now I'm confusing myself.

edit: I'd use a dash for 1 and 2 and full stops for 3 and 4 of HB's sentences. Or full stops for 1 and 2 and dashes for 3 and 4.... I dunno, think it makes the dialogue a bit snappier. Agree on the preference for long dashes and the possible confusion of semicolons (darn those smudges!)

 

[EricWard]

Ooooh, that worries me, sorry. They aren't specialized, they are for specific use that isn't the same as a period or comma, and should be seen as an essential tool in the toolbox, surely. Just cos mr king doesn't use them (i will keep an eye out, see if he ever does), I am sure he has them in his big ol' toolbox, just in case.

No apologies, I'll never lose sleep about incorrect grammar in dialogue.

I agree completely that they have a specific use, but if I'm going to have a character say a related clause, I'll just use a comma. Internal dialogue and description, that's another matter.

It's absolutely a US thing. I think we view them as slightly antiquated and stuffy. That's why we like to brashly split infinitives and end sentences with prepositions, like I will right here.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Oooh, can I claim the marmite thread award for the night?

@ eric, you win the brash award. Ahh, but you say when they say a related clause, i mailny use them when they think a specific clause, related to a different, but linked, action eg It turned back onto Sean and he forced himself to meet its eyes; just because they were aliens didn’t mean they were sinister.

To my mind, neither a full stop or period would work there.

I am like harebrain, they are instinctual, i just hit them when it is right, but a review might be due.

 

[Mouse]

I'd full stop or comma all of HB's.