Semi colons in speech/ direct thoughts

[Warren_Paul]

Woman, cheers. no, i don't think it is a case of that, at all. I think if that had been the case then in all the people who have read my stuff, including two full edits, one of which carried out a line edit of an 80000 word book, some uk readers, some american and several other nationalities in there (I get around ) someone, somewhere, would have said I had got them all wrong. Now, don't get me wrong, I get queries on some of them, but, frankly, more drop comma comments than semicolons, and we all know how subjective commas are.

Sometimes they trip me up, using a semi-colon to attach an action to direct thoughts. I think that is more about how close the action really relates to the thought -- at times I've felt they don't actually connect enough to warrant a semi-colon. But to be fair, I was doing some editing of my book today and came across this:

‘I heard you’ve been causing trouble again,’ Nikora said, and returned her gaze to me. I sighed; here comes the self-righteous lecture.

So I do use them to connect thoughts to actions as well.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

I don't think they should be connected to internal monologue that way. We should ask one of our resident grammarians.

 

[Warren_Paul]

I don't think they should be connected to internal monologue that way. We should ask one of our resident grammarians.

Aren't you one of those grammarians? I'd have thought that pretty final on the matter.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Aren't you one of those grammarians?

No, no. I'm not in the same league as some of the experts around here, like TJ and chrispenycate. There is a difference between knowing what is right (or wrong) and being able to explain exactly why (or why not).

I've never had a copy editor quibble with any of my semicolons -- and copy editors are, obviously, experts -- so I feel quite secure that I am using them correctly. That doesn't mean that they can't be applied in situations where I wouldn't use one.

I am 90% sure that we shouldn't use them to connect speech or internal monologue to action, but it would be better if someone who knows all the rules and exceptions were to weigh in.

 

[The Judge]

Um... well... *swaps judicial wig for a pedagogue's mortarboard*

I haven't the faintest idea what the actual rules are for semi-colon usage -- my ODE remarks helpfully "The semicolon is the punctuation mark that causes most trouble in ordinary writing". Oh, yes.

Anyhow, to me, the main use of a semi-colon is to join two very closely connected clauses at what would be the end of a sentence if the sentence were to be ended there (that made rather more sense before I wrote it down...) ie you could put a full stop between the two clauses and the first, at least, would make a grammatical sentence. My ODE pitches in to say the two parts of the sentence should normally balance each other in that event, as opposed to a colon which leads from one thought to the other.

Looking at Warren's

I sighed; here comes the self-righteous lecture.

To me, that semi-colon is wrong, even though it fulfils the could-be-a-full-stop rule because although closely connected, the second clause leads straight on from the first ie the punctuation should be a colon at minimum.

The extra problem is that the second clause is in present tense, whereas the first is in past, which separates them further, so to my mind even the colon is dodgy in this instance. Personally, I'd full stop and put the "Here comes..." in italics.

There. That help?

 

[Warren_Paul]

Thanks TJ. One of the many reasons I started writing in first-person was to avoid having to italicise internal monologue -- some people get all up in arms over italicised sentences mixed in with narrative -- but I can see what you mean by the tense change and the need to show the difference. I might just reword the sentence to make it past narrative, rather than internal monologue.

 

[Ursa major]

Thanks TJ. One of the many reasons I started writing in first-person was to avoid having to italicise internal monologue -- some people get all up in arms over italicised sentences mixed in with narrative -- but I can see what you mean by the tense change and the need to show the difference. I might just reword the sentence to make it past narrative, rather than internal monologue.

With very close third person (past tense) you can include what are, for all intents and purposes, thoughts and internal dialogue without using italics, first person or a shift into the present tense. You can still use the latter, if you want to emphasise the immediacy of a thought. In effect, this was what Springs was doing in her example in post#31.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

With very close third person (past tense) you can include what are, for all intents and purposes, thoughts and internal dialogue without using italics, first person or a shift into the present tense. You can still use the latter, if you want to emphasise the immediacy of a thought. In effect, this was what Springs was doing in her example in post#31.

And now, at least, I understand my confusion. To me, they are direct thoughts, as in they are the characters' thoughts at that exact time. But I can see that this is different to when we use italics and actually state direct thoughts, and can see the tense change now. I suspect I'll continue to use semi-colons for some of these, but I have been reviewing them to see if some can go. (So far in 6 chapters, I've changed two to a full stop. )

 

[thaddeus6th]

Another semi-colon question. Is the below sentence (dialogue) correct?

[FONT=&quot]And worse still; your cooking.[/FONT]

 

[Brian G Turner]

That looks like it should be: a colon.

 

[Bakerman]

I'm of the firm belief that grammar and punctuation exist to properly transcribe speech. I've seen people write using tons of commas to indicate pauses, and it just comes out being grammatically wrong and monotonous, because they don't realise the way punctuation denotes inflection.

(Or, maybe it does to me. I'll be interested to see how many people agree.)

I think HareBrain's examples are fantastic at demonstrating not just how semicolons can be used in dialogue, but how their replacements change the inflection of the voice. Take the first one:

"I understand; it’s sacred."

With the semicolon, I hear the 'understand' as having an upwards inflection towards the end, a tone that suggests the thought isn't finished, there's more coming - but I need to give you (and myself) a pause here. Different from:

"I understand. It's sacred."

The 'understand' here has a downward inflection signifying the end of a sentence (unless you're an Australian, and say everything as a question?). The pause might be the same length, but the clauses are very much separated. The "It's sacred" becomes a separate thought, rather than a continuation.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that the semicolon here doesn't just determine the length of the pause;* it tells me how the character actually speaks the line.

I think Culhwch's alternatives by closing the dialogue and inserting 'he said' or similar actually come the closest to preserving the original inflection. I myself tend to use more dashes, though I'm also very sparing with dialogue, and my characters don't tend to talk in long sentences.

Ellipses, too, give a different meaning to me. They're a hesitation, or a deliberate pause, whereas a semicolon is done almost subconsciously. Colons are like leaning over an edge: there's more coming, but wait for it... wait for it! Dashes are - as has been mentioned - interruptions. The semicolon, to me, is as natural as a comma.




So, to answer the initial question in the thread: I have no problem using semicolons in dialogue, even if I don't have the occasion to do it often myself. I reckon that punctuation is meant to help us transcribe speech in more ways than the length of pauses, and semicolons have their own role to play in accurately representing how someone speaks.

*I originally put a semicolon here, then suddenly was unsure about whether that was what I meant. Wracked with indecision, I deleted it, tried a comma, realised that wasn't grammar, put the semicolon back, and continued, bemused.**

** If there's not a comma splice in there somewhere, I'll be damned.