R Scott Bakker - The Darkness that Comes Before

Finished the trilogy last night. 'Death came swirling down' a lot. It went a bit OTT on the philosophy towards the end, to the point where it went over my head a little, but overall I thought it was a very good trilogy. The second book, in particular, was excellent. I'll definitely pick up the 'Aspect-Emperor' trilogy when it's finished.
 
Certainly one of the most intelligent, well-written and thought-provoking epic fantasies of all time. For me, it ranks alongside Martin and Erikson as the dominant modern epic fantasy series in terms of ambition, scale, scope and inventiveness.

That said, the negatives cannot be argued with too much. He has stock phrases he likes to use too much. His use of the mother/maiden/crone mythological trope means his female characters aren't well-developed compared to other epic fantasy authors. And he arguably holds back too many revelations to too deep in the series: The White-Luck Warrior, which is Book 5, explains a whole bunch of stuff that should have come out earlier. This is not uncommon in fantasy, though, and it's rather better than Erikson (who delays some things until his eleventh book that should have really been spelled out in the first volume).

If you can get into its headspace, it's great. If you're after a more traditional epic fantasy adventure series, definitely steer well clear. It's so bleak it makes GRRM read like My Little Pony ;)
 
I guess the word I would best use to describe these books is challenging. They ask an awful lot from the reader but, for me, they deliver a lot back. The first book I found tortoise like in its slowness, but something made me preserve, and by the middle part of the second book I was rewarded. I am now eagerly awaiting the last one of the follow up trilogy, although it has to be said that the second trilogy is much more traditional than the first, so far anyway...
 
R Scott Bakker divides opinion. It's very much a love/hate thing. He's well worth persevering with, however. His stories layer extremely well. The characters are well drawn, but the drawing of them is extremely drawn out... as they should be? It's this sort of philosophical conundrum that puts some readers off.

Me, I like his stuff, but would not hesitate to agree it can be hard going. I'd prefer something that was slightly too hard than slightly too easy. That's a matter of taste, of course.

Yes, there's a lot of darkness there too, but it's not gratuitous, I'd say. The treatment of women is poor, but there's a point being made at the same time. His work is extremely reflective, and highlights the poor treatment of women as much as anything else.

At the end of the day, the darkness might be too unremitting. A few more jokes might not have gone amiss, but somehow they'd have disrupted everything. They would have been facile, etc... albeit that I also enjoy a good dose of Gotrek and Felix. Long live the Black Library! Both 'high' and 'low' brow stuff influences my work... hopefully, the whole is greater than the sum of the diddly-doos, etc.
 
"One cannot raise walls against what has been forgotten"

Does this mean essentially the same thing as "You can't defend against what you don't know to exist"?
 
I reckon it means there is/was an evil so ancient that it has been forgotten by all those that live. We no longer remember it, so cannot build and prepare against its return. Indeed, it cu78888888888888888888 argh! cat has taken over keyboard, stopping me... from telling you that....
 
Wait, is your cat the evil so ancient all have forgotten it?!
 
With hindsight I am beginning to think I misconstrued this novel. At the time I picked it up I was looking for close-third written stories, where I could look at the emotional development of characters. Very much looking for writers in the fantasy genre who might be similar to what I'm writing.

When I now think on The Darkness that Comes Before, I remember it was strongly hinted at that the character might be an artificial intelligence of some kind. Because of that, it lacked the general emotive relationships with the world we take for granted. Additionally, that would also explain the use of language.

Does that sound about right?

So my main problem with the book was probably that I was expecting a certain style of storytelling, only to find the elements meant that was not possible and that it was a very different book to what I was looking to read at the time.
 
Kellhus is a Dunyain, which could be compared to a Mentat from Dune: he's basically a walking organic computer who has suppressed his emotions to the point of non-existence and can operate from a position of pure logic.

So yes, you could say that he is a sort-of AI construct ;) And there are also very strong SF overtones in other parts of the story which feed into this.
 
Werthead said:
Kellhus is a Dunyain, which could be compared to a Mentat from Dune: he's basically a walking organic computer who has suppressed his emotions to the point of non-existence and can operate from a position of pure logic.

So yes, you could say that he is a sort-of AI construct ;) And there are also very strong SF overtones in other parts of the story which feed into this.
Click to expand...

Cheers for the heads up - I'll give this another try when my reading schedule calms down. :)
 
Just checked out the prologue and I can somewhat see the problem. This reads like one of many religious books. Theres a message in there if your prayers are earnest enough you'll be enlightened.

The only way to save yourself in getting through-if the rest hold true to the prologue-would be to view it as such and figure that you may pick it up one day and have a great ah-ha moment. Or not.

I do know that by the end of the prologue I didn't care enough to go on-though I spent about five minutes staring at the screen-pondering.
 
Started this a few nights ago, thought the prologue was fabulous, really enjoyed reading it. Found the actual story tougher going but I'm still enjoying it and looking forward to picking it up again later
 
Just to add: this is one of my favourite series of all time. Really well written with some of my favourite prose.

The history is deep and lavish and the story is dark and epic in scale.

Definitely recommended.
 
I thoroughly enjoyed the first trilogy: I found it particularly exciting that he'd found a way to tell a story about such a thoroughly dislikable and terrifying character. Then I realised that not everyone seemed to view him this way... Waiting for the conclusion to the second trilogy (or quartet as it is now) before I tackle that.
 
Hey Crooksy,

I think the series gets better and better - it also one of the few series I have ever re-read and because of the complex and large cast and the subtlety and nuance incumbent throughout I found a re-read thoroughly rewarding.

I have participated in some Podcasts and am involved with the community over at: The Second Apocalypse - Index where there are some great discussions.

I would just warn you to beware of spoilers!

I am very excited for the concluding novels.
 
Thanks SilentRoamer, glad to hear your thoughts, if there are spoilers there I'll head over and take a look once I'm through the series :)
 
Don't know how I missed this. I'm a fan of Bakker and taking aback that so many people dislike this.
I read the Prince of Nothing Trilogy when it first came out, Kellhus is one of those characters that stays with you. Forgot how much i enjoyed his writing until recently when I picked up first two in The Aspect Emperor series.
 
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