Oliver's own crackpot theory - Rhaegar is Alive

[thatollie]

. . . and is the Elder Brother of The Quiet Isle.

When I died in the Battle of the Trident. I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name.

The start is pretty self explanatory. They both fought for Rhaegar. The end is trickier, does the Elder Brother even have a name? He is never referred to as anything else and he was "reborn" so it may refer to him not having a name.

The battle was a bloody thing. The singers would have us believe it was all Rhaegar and Robert struggling in the stream for a woman both of them claimed to love, but I assure you, other men were fighting too, and I was one.

This may be a reference to Robert not really loving Lyanna but being in love with her memory. And Prince Rhaegar was a compassionate man, he'd emphasis that it wasn't mano-a-mano.

I heard hooves behind my back and thought, a horse! but before I could turn something slammed into my head and knocked me back into the river, where by rights I should have drowned.
Instead I woke here, upon the Quiet Isle. The Elder Brother told me I had washed up on the tide, naked as my name day. I can only think that someone found me in the shallows, stripped me of my armor, boots, and breeches, and pushed me back out into the deeper water. The river did the rest. We are all born naked, so I suppose it was only fitting that I come into my second life the same way. I spent the next ten years in silence.

This is one of two memorable descriptions of someone dying at The Trident, here's the other . . .

Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last breath murmured a woman's name.

Other notes and thoughts,

- The Elder Brother shaves his head, something Rhaegar's grandfather did as a child when trying to hide the fact that he was a Targ.
- Rhaegar was literally the elder brother of Dany and Viserys.
- They are both tall, intellectual, quiet and reflective.

 

[juleska]

Now that IS a crackpot theory. I think it rivals the Imp's "Ned is Alive" theory. LOL!

I'm gonna have to stew on this one.

 

[Boaz]

Ollie, I'm the first to advocate crackpot theories. I'd love to have Rhaegar's actions explained. I'm dying to know the truth of Lyanna's abduction. Rhaegar would be a perfect person to explain that... and mayhaps Aegon's escape from KL... and mayhaps Jon's parentage. But I'm not sold on this one yet. Someone else tried to sell it a few years back...

The elder brother, if I recall correctly, looks young... younger than thirty to Brienne. If Rhaegar was alive he'd be at least forty... probably forty-five. I'm forty-six and very young looking, but I'd never pass for thirty... thirty-eight, thirty-five maybe... on a good night, in bad light.

Sell harder! I'd love to buy this one!

 

[thatollie]

I am yet to dig into Jaime's and JonCon's memories of Rhaegar but that is for another evening.

However, the wiki of ice and fire lists Rhaegar as born 259 and the EB as probably 256.

 

[Boaz]

Well, looks like my memory is faulty. Will wonders never cease?

 

[Needle]

Ollie, I'm the first to advocate crackpot theories. I'd love to have Rhaegar's actions explained. I'm dying to know the truth of Lyanna's abduction. Rhaegar would be a perfect person to explain that... and mayhaps Aegon's escape from KL... and mayhaps Jon's parentage. But I'm not sold on this one yet. Someone else tried to sell it a few years back...

The elder brother, if I recall correctly, looks young... younger than thirty to Brienne. If Rhaegar was alive he'd be at least forty... probably forty-five. I'm forty-six and very young looking, but I'd never pass for thirty... thirty-eight, thirty-five maybe... on a good night, in bad light.

Sell harder! I'd love to buy this one!

I'm with Boaz on this point, keep digging, it would make my year if Rhaegar showed up!

 

[Tywin]

Do we ever have a description of a funeral, putting the head on a spike, or any other indication of what happened to Rhaegar's body? I think I remember the Martells asking for some bodies back...

 

[devilsgrin]

the martells asked for elia's body back - and perhaps - iirc the bodies of her children...

not sure about this... isn't it mentioned that Robert smashed Rhaegar's chest in with his warhammer, and thats why all the rubies "bled" from his chestplate. I know hyperbole is alive when mummers and minstrels are involved... but i'm sure its mentioned a couple of times that Rhaegar has his chest crushed... not knocked out by someone passing by on horseback. Can you imagine Robert NOT smashing to pieces the person who robbed him of his "vengeance" or "justice" by knocking Rhaegar out and into the water...

 

[Reivax26]

It is an interesting theory. I have my own crackpot theory that the new holy man in Kings Landing that is running the church now is in fact Howland Reed.

Honestly, how many people that are at court right now would even recognize him. What better place for Ned's best friend to dish out justice on the wicked. Stupid Cersei fell right into the trap of recreating the old order of holy knights also.

When we first met that monk, I will admit that I had a similar thought. What better place for Rhaegar to hide. If it is him, we won't know until the last book. Aegon's return could spark him to reveal himself to his son and Connington.

 

[Boaz]

Regarding Rhaegar... I'd think that a broken sternum and a number of broken upper ribs would be fatal. Throughout history, important men, especially kings and princes, have often disguised themselves before battle and let a body double wear their royal armor and bear the danger that goes with it. Is that the explanation?

I think that would go against Rhaegar's honor, especially when leading his army against a major rebellion. And now BFS is a POV character so we get his thoughts... as a living legend of the Kingsguard, he was probably in the know for all of Rhaegar's battle preparations... so if Rhaegar was disguised, then there is a decent chance we would learn of it in BFS' POV.

Regarding Howland... He is the new High Septon? That is an enormously elaborate disguise and plan for the Lord of the Crannogmen and a follower of the Old Gods.

Reivax, I fully agree that you are correct that Howland is integral to the story and the return of the Starks. He was the only other survivor of the battle at the Tower of Joy. His children know stories of Brandon, Eddard, Lyanna, and Benjen that Bran has never heard. His children also swore an oath to Bran by "ice and fire."

I think the most popular theory about Howland is that he is posing as Tom O'Sevens, the bard of the Riverlands. But I'm not sure that I buy that one either... because he was around Arya, who has the distinctly Stark look, for a time and he never recognized her. He knew who Harwin was and he must have seen Arya and Harwin talking. He knew Lyanna's face and Eddard said that Arya looke like her. If Tom was really Howland, then he probably should have recognized Arya and helped her reach safety.

 

[The Imp]

Now that IS a crackpot theory. I think it rivals the Imp's "Ned is Alive" theory. LOL!

I'm gonna have to stew on this one.

All due respect to Ollie's theory and your judgement, my "Ned is alive" is pretty much a 10 on a scale of 10 it doesn't get much wackier than that one

and I STILL think that there's a very slim chance that it's true.

 

[Ursa major]

Yes, TI, It's hard to imagine a crackpot theory to... er... top your Ned's Alive one.

 

[Boaz]

Other theories are silly or absurd, but "Eddard is Alive" plays upon all of our deep desires that it becomes whimsical... a faint breeze that cools our fevered brows. Ahhhhh.... We all want it to be true.... but there is NO FREAKING WAY!

 

[The Imp]

Yes, TI, It's hard to imagine a crackpot theory to... er... top your Ned's Alive one.

Thank you, I think

that theory is the pinacle of crazy/crackpot, but I'm kind of proud of it as I think it's inspired and at least possible, although I wouldn't bet the house on it

I'm in no way commenting on Ollie's Rahegar theory when I say any of this btw. I'm just saying it's not nearly as crackpotty

 

[Eversummer]

Damn! This is so good! I'd like to devour this one...I'm still halfway thru ASOS. I'll look out for Sandor and the Quiet Isle.

 

[joshrackley]

Off the top of my head I can't think of any information that could immediately discount this theory (and of that I'm quite happy--I like this theory). What is the statement that Robert makes to Ned fairly early in GoT about killing (allegedly) Rhaegar? It's something to the effect of:

I killed him Ned. I crushed his chest and I killed him, but he still won.

That's obviously a paraphrase (and I may be pulling that from the show and not the book) but it's along those lines.

Also, first time poster here. I've been reading theories and discussions on this forum for quite a while and decided that I might as well jump on in. Currently about halfway through ASoS on my re-read of the books.

 

[The Imp]

Off the top of my head I can't think of any information that could immediately discount this theory (and of that I'm quite happy--I like this theory). What is the statement that Robert makes to Ned fairly early in GoT about killing (allegedly) Rhaegar? It's something to the effect of: That's obviously a paraphrase (and I may be pulling that from the show and not the book) but it's along those lines.

Also, first time poster here. I've been reading theories and discussions on this forum for quite a while and decided that I might as well jump on in. Currently about halfway through ASoS on my re-read of the books.

Welcome to The Chrons

here's that quote

Robert reached for the flagon and refilled his cup. "You see what she does to me, Ned." The king seated himself, cradling his wine cup. "My loving wife. The mother of my children." The rage was gone from him now; in his eyes Ned saw something sad and scared. "I should not have hit her. That was not . . . that was not kingly." He stared down at his hands, as if he did not quite know what they were. "I was always strong . . . no one could stand before me, no one. How do you fight someone if you can’t hit them?" Confused, the king shook his head. "Rhaegar . . . Rhaegar won, damn him. I killed him, Ned, I drove the spike right through that black armor into his black heart, and he died at my feet. They made up songs about it. Yet somehow he still won. He has Lyanna now, and I have her." The king drained his cup.

 

[Boaz]

Welcome, josh!

From Eddard's first POV...

"I vowed to kill Rhaegar for what he did to her."

"You did," Ned reminded him.

"Only once," Robert said bitterly.

They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three-headed dragon of his House, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. The water of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it. When Ned had finally come on the scene, Rhaegar lay dead in the stream, while men of both armies scrabbled in the swirling waters for rubies knocked free of his armor.

Eddard and Robert were young, but they'd seen Rhaegar before. In particular, Eddard saw him at the great tourney at Harrenhal. Also Jon Arryn and other high lords must have seen Rhaegar hundreds of times and some of the rebel lords would have known him well. If the dead man was a stand in, I think they might have noticed.

I think the passage I quoted shows that Rhaegar died in battle... and Imp's quote is definitive. A spike through the heart not only kills vampires... it is fatal to humans too.

But it is obvious that the Elder Brother is an educated and cultured man. He is far too refined to be of common birth. He also is a leader of men. So who is he? If not Rhaegar, he must be of noble birth... He could easily have been a knight or lord from the losing side at the Trident.

I think I remember someone once postulated that he is Gerion Lannister, youngest brother to Tywin.

 

[joshrackley]

A thought: Is there any information to suggest that practitioners of other faiths (besides R'hollor) have the ability to breathe life back into a corpse? Lord Beric would contend that death is not always a finality .

 

[TK-421]

My goodness, crackpot indeed. Rheagar is dead and the story is better for it.