Oliver's own crackpot theory - Rhaegar is Alive

[Boaz]

My goodness, crackpot indeed. Rheagar is dead and the story is better for it.

As usual, your ability to get to the heart of the matter amazes me. Two sentences and you're done... while I need multiple posts with multiple paragraphs. I salute you!!!

 

[Keebs411]

I think I remember someone once postulated that he is Gerion Lannister, youngest brother to Tywin.

i must have missed this in a previous thread if it was mentioned before, either way, i like it! It is always exciting to see where those MIA may pop up when you not expecting it. Makes me want to go re-read through those chapters again now.

 

[TK-421]

As usual, your ability to get to the heart of the matter amazes me. Two sentences and you're done... while I need multiple posts with multiple paragraphs. I salute you!!!

You are too kind my friend.

While I like such theories, this one really would take away from the story.

 

[Tywin]

While I agree that the story is better with Rhaegar dead, I think that a look deeper into the identity of the Elder Brother could also be very interesting.

What notable leaders "died" at the Battle of the Trident? The wiki has listed Lewyn Martell (whose bones were supposedly returned to Dorne), Ser Jon Darry, and both sons of Mors Umber.

 

[joshrackley]

Jon Darry is probably not a good fit as Rhaegar is likely to have known his name: Willem Darry was the master at arms that Rhaegar went to when he decided to become a knight and the Darry's were a fairly prominent house among the Targaryen loyalists. Willem was also among the group that took Viserys and Dany to Braavos and helped arrange the planned union of Viserys to Arianne Martell ... except that Khal Drogo crowned him first.

Edit: And we know from the Elder Brother that: "I fought for Prince Rhaegar, though he never knew my name. I could not tell you why, save that the lord I served a lord who served a lord who had decided to support the dragon rather than the stag ... I can still remember how desperate I was to find another horse, for I had no coin to buy one ..."

This passage would also seem to eliminate Rhaegar from the running.

 

[Eversummer]

I was halfway through my reread of the series... In AFFC...

Elder Brother was described as...

...The Elder Brother was not what Brienne had expected. He could hardly be called elder, for a start; whereas the brothers weeding in the garden had had the stooped shoulders and bent backs of old men, he stood straight and tall, and moved with the vigor of a man in the prime of his years. Nor did he have the gentle, kindly face she expected of a healer. His head was large and square, his eyes shrewd, his nose veined and red. Though he wore a tonsure, his scalp was as stubby as his heavy jaw...

so he is definitely not the one but:

...Their supper in the septry was as strange a meal as Brienne had ever eaten, though not at all unpleasant. The food was plain, but very good; there were loaves of crusty bread still warm from the ovens, crocks of fresh-churned butter, honey from the septry’s hives, and a thick stew of crabs, mussels, and at least three different kinds of fish. Septon Meribald and Ser Hyle drank the mead the brothers made, and pronounced it excellent, whilst she and Podrick contented themselves with more sweet cider. Nor was the meal a somber one. Meribald pronounced a prayer before the food was served, and whilst the brothers ate at four long trestle tables, one of their number played for them on the high harp, filling the hall with soft sweet sounds. When the Elder Brother excused the musician to take his own meal, Brother Narbert and another proctor took turns reading from The Seven-Pointed Star...


Well, what dyou guys think? could that be our dragon prince?

 

[juleska]

Lots of people know how to play the high harp. Rhaegar is dead.

 

[Eversummer]

Lots of people know how to play the high harp. Rhaegar is dead.

I beg to disagree so far I only know a few who plays the high harp and they were singers like Bael, Blue Bard, Symond Silvertongue, Marillion, Tom Sevens and Dareon. Singers have this characteristic of being merry as they provide entertainment and I just simply don't think that one would prefer the solemn vow of silence in the Quiet Isle. Could be the Luke Skywalker reference as Jon meets Rhaegar. haha...too much crackpot.

 

[juleska]

If the reference was to a silver-stringed harp, I'd concede you have a point. But there are far too many harp players in Westeros for that to be substantive.

 

[Tywin]

I in no way think that Rhaegar is alive, but still want to know who the Elder Brother is...
Need some brain power from the collective here.

 

[Boaz]

Ty, We know that Robert pardoned Selmy, Jaime, Pycelle, Varys, Mace and all his lords, Doran and all his lords, and even the late Lord Frey... and afterwards Robert even forgave Balon of his treachery. So how did Aliser Thorne and Jaremy Rykker end up taking the Black or having their heads on spikes? The answer is that they were on the losing side when Robert was not there. Your namesake passed judgement upon them. I think that fact may have assisted the Elder Brother in his decision to find religion on the Quiet Isle... it was either that or go home and face Tywin's judgment. Thus, I think he came from the Westerlands. Were there any western lords who fought for the Targaryens?

 

[juleska]

Ty, We know that Robert pardoned Selmy, Jaime, Pycelle, Varys, Mace and all his lords, Doran and all his lords, and even the late Lord Frey... and afterwards Robert even forgave Balon of his treachery. So how did Aliser Thorne and Jaremy Rykker end up taking the Black or having their heads on spikes? The answer is that they were on the losing side when Robert was not there. Your namesake passed judgement upon them. I think that fact may have assisted the Elder Brother in his decision to find religion on the Quiet Isle... it was either that or go home and face Tywin's judgment. Thus, I think he came from the Westerlands. Were there any western lords who fought for the Targaryens?

I think all of Tywin's bannermen fought for the Targaryens until Tywin switched sides, didn't they?

 

[Boaz]

Dunno, jules. I'd imagine it would take real courage and conviction to defy Tywin Lannister within the first fifteen to twenty years after the fall of House Castamere. Even fifteen years after Robert's ascension to the throne, the western lords follow Tywin in starting a war against the Starks and Tullys in direct defiance of the King.

I know I'm shooting my own idea... but there you go.

 

[Tywin]

One of Connington's lords perhaps?

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I'm baaaaaaaaaaaaaaack!

There is no doubt in my mind that the Elder Brother is someone we know, someone that is important to the story. Evidence for it being Rhaegar? There is.

The site Tower of the Hand lists the Elder Brother as being 44.

A Wiki of Ice and Fire lists Rhaegar as born in 259 AL. Robb Stark died in 299 AL, so if we assume that as the current year, Rhaegar would be 40 now. Let's say that Rhaegar's body was washed away in the Trident.

The Trident has its mouth in the Bay of Crabs. Slightly north of the Trident between the site of the battle and the Bay of Crabs is the town of Saltpans. This town lies north of a little place called the Quiet Isle.

Geographically it matches up. The age also lines up almost completely.

There are a few things that bother me, though.

If it is Rhaegar, why didn't he rise up again? The Battle of the Trident was very recent and there were still houses loyal to his family. In fact, wouldn't the deaths of his wife and children, a piece of news I am sure that would have reached Saltpans and the Quiet Isle in due time, galvanised him into action? Since Saltpans is in Tully territory, this news would almost certainly have spread there.

If it was Rhaegar, why does he look so different? Sure, lying limp in the water can't do your body much favours, but unless he took to drinking and had surgery, a square jaw with a large square head does not really concur with Rhaegar's handsome features.

If it was Rhaegar, why wasn't he paraded around by the people who found him? Their liege was a Tully, the final battle took place not far from the Quiet Isle. And still, they did not know who their enemy was? The ******* was famous! I know I'm invoking Godwin here, but let's say you were a Russian in WW2 Berlin. Would you not parade his body around once you found a dead Hitler?

Sure, I'm going out on a limb and assuming that the Riverlands peasants knew who Rhaegar was, but certainly they would have recognized SOMETHING about him?

Staying quiet for 10 years helps but...I dunno, it just doesn't sit well with me, no matter how much this theory seems to fit. Common sense is just intervening.

 

[Boaz]

Syphon, I also agree about displaying the body. I know Robert and Eddard were noobs to rebellion, but Lord Arryn and others older lords and knights would have known that public funerals or heads on spikes or sending the body to the four corners of the kingdom are the ways that myths and legends are dispelled.

 

[Syphon of Oor-Tael]

I know! If you had the body of a charismatic man who people would love to see succeed his father the mad king, would you not show it to his supporters to make them go all "Aw nuts, I'm going home" ?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I have to echo that I dont think it is Rheagar. I feel pretty certain that Rheagar is dead (but then again, I thought The hound and the Mountain were dead too, but we will see I guess)

I am very curious to find out who Elder Brother is. I have an inkling that he might be instrumental, maybe even the Church's chosen warrior in the sentence against cersei, but who knows.

On a side note, have we ever gotten a physical description of howland reed? I'm not trying to imply that he is Elder Brother, but I have a feeling that we have already Met Howland reed once or twice, maybe even as different, small characters. I don't think he is Tom O'Sevens, but I haven't read the evidence for or against that theory so I am open minded.

 

[Tywin]

I have to echo that I dont think it is Rheagar. I feel pretty certain that Rheagar is dead (but then again, I thought The hound and the Mountain were dead too, but we will see I guess)

I am very curious to find out who Elder Brother is. I have an inkling that he might be instrumental, maybe even the Church's chosen warrior in the sentence against cersei, but who knows.

Have we covered already that it looks like the stage is set for the hound to fight the mountain during Cersei's trial?

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Have we covered already that it looks like the stage is set for the hound to fight the mountain during Cersei's trial?

It has been put forward and I like that idea but no one can say for sure what will happen...

Except GRRM himself of course.