Crackpot Question from a Newbie

[Lost Beyond Belief]

Please forgive me,

I scoured the internet looking for superintellegent people to propose this crackpot theory, and my quest brought me here

If it has been discussed already, or shot down in early flight...I apologise.

Sansa Stark is her mother's daughter. Are we very super sure that she is Eddard's daughter?

I am going to wait to see if this gets directed somewhere else, or to the bin, before I mention why I am so curious.
Thanks everyone.

 

[The Imp]

Please forgive me,

I scoured the internet looking for superintellegent people to propose this crackpot theory, and my quest brought me here

If it has been discussed already, or shot down in early flight...I apologise.

Sansa Stark is her mother's daughter. Are we very super sure that she is Eddard's daughter?

I am going to wait to see if this gets directed somewhere else, or to the bin, before I mention why I am so curious.
Thanks everyone.

First off, welcome

second, I assume/hope you have read all of the books, as you're guaranteed to read many spoilers if you haven't

third, is Sansa Eddard's daughter? interesting question. There was a "bloodlines' thread started recently that might addressed a similar question. Sansa certainly LOOKS like a Tully, where her sister Arya LOOKS like a Stark. As i remember it Bran looks like a Stark, Rickon like a Tully and Robb like a Tully. Jon looks like a Stark but is irrelevant in this issue.What I'm not sure has been established is whether or not the Stark or Tully gene would be dominant, or if either would be at all. My suggestion would be to carefully read that thread and other info that may be online about your question. I'd also love to hear more about why you may think this.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I am going to wait to see if this gets directed somewhere else, or to the bin, before I mention why I am so curious.
Thanks everyone.

I would suggest mentioning why you are so curious so that this doesn't get directed somewhere else or end up in the bin.

I glanced briefly at the bloodlines thread Imp mentioned and maybe that will answer your questions, but I get the feeling that you have another idea in mind...

so please... do tell.

 

[Lost Beyond Belief]

Thanks for such quick responses!

I just finished reading the bloodline thread. Thank you for that insight.

Here is why I am so fervently looking into this idea....

1. Physical Features- Sansa does not really look like a Stark. She has very ladylike features, fairer hair, and blue eyes. Now GRRM may do whatever he likes with genetics, but in our world it would be very unlikely that Cat and Ned would produce those traits.

2. Lady- Sansa is crushed when her direwolf is killed, but just as any person would be if someone killed their dog. She does not seem to be a warg, and she does not seem to have a significant attachment (more that normal emotion) at the loss of Lady. I think this is a big early clue to us that Sansa is not Stark blood. The other Stark children are way more attached, even magically, to their direwolfs. If Sansa had warginess in her, I would have thought the loss of her direwolf to leave a giant gaping hole in her psyche.

3. Timing- Cat is not perfect; she is dedicated, but she has very human qualities and emotions. Sansa is the next born after Ned comes back with his *******. If a woman was going to have an affair, well, a bit of revenge cheating might have fit right into that timeline. I am going to go back and see if there is anything specifically written about Cat from the time Ned gets back with Jon till Sansa's birth. If anyone remembers anything, feel free to chime in!

4. Surprise- No one is thinking this... what a great author to sneak something like this past us all?! Sansa in all her growing still has the weight of possibly erring and having her father die. What might she become if she finds out that it wasn't dad after all? How strong might she become if she realizes she does not have the "blood of a traitor"? All this time she has been quietly growing up and learning. Sansa may just be the best candidate for Queen that Westeros has ever had.

I will go hide in a corner now... please be gentle

 

[The Imp]

Thanks for such quick responses!

I just finished reading the bloodline thread. Thank you for that insight.

Here is why I am so fervently looking into this idea....

1. Physical Features- Sansa does not really look like a Stark. She has very ladylike features, fairer hair, and blue eyes. Now GRRM may do whatever he likes with genetics, but in our world it would be very unlikely that Cat and Ned would produce those traits.

2. Lady- Sansa is crushed when her direwolf is killed, but just as any person would be if someone killed their dog. She does not seem to be a warg, and she does not seem to have a significant attachment (more that normal emotion) at the loss of Lady. I think this is a big early clue to us that Sansa is not Stark blood. The other Stark children are way more attached, even magically, to their direwolfs. If Sansa had warginess in her, I would have thought the loss of her direwolf to leave a giant gaping hole in her psyche.

3. Timing- Cat is not perfect; she is dedicated, but she has very human qualities and emotions. Sansa is the next born after Ned comes back with his *******. If a woman was going to have an affair, well, a bit of revenge cheating might have fit right into that timeline. I am going to go back and see if there is anything specifically written about Cat from the time Ned gets back with Jon till Sansa's birth. If anyone remembers anything, feel free to chime in!

4. Surprise- No one is thinking this... what a great author to sneak something like this past us all?! Sansa in all her growing still has the weight of possibly erring and having her father die. What might she become if she finds out that it wasn't dad after all? How strong might she become if she realizes she does not have the "blood of a traitor"? All this time she has been quietly growing up and learning. Sansa may just be the best candidate for Queen that Westeros has ever had.

I will go hide in a corner now... please be gentle

Well, no need to hide as no flaming happens in our quiet little corner of the web. Everyone here is very kind and supportive and if someone thinks you're nuts they'll say it kindly

Physical features- Robb also has the Tully look, with auburn hair and blue eyes. Rickon also has the Tully look. How do we account for this? Two fathers? Dominant vs. recessive genes?

Lady- Sansa didn't really have her wolf long enough to start having wolf dreams or be able to warg into it. I'd make the argument that Robb, Rickon and Snsa all had the same father, and if the boys were wargs Sansa could be as well. of course, we don't know for sure that Robb was a warg. I think that Rickon is though.

Timing- I think my answers above cover this point

Surprise- It would dfeinitely be a great surpise, and I honestly don't think that GRRM has set the table well enough for it, so it would pretty much be a deux ex machina moment if it occurred

Keep working on it though, I love a good crackpot theory

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

Hello and welcome.

Crackpot theories abound here, so have no fear when you come up with one. I myself am not creative enough to come up any, but I do enjoy reading through those others come up with.

As for this one, a couple things don't sit too well with me. First, as Imp said, I don't think Sansa and Lady had enough time together to figure out their warging abilities. It has taken most of the Stark children awhile to realize what the ability is, and that they weren't just dreaming.

Second is the fact that we have a Catelyn POV. I think there would have been hints in her chapters if she had been unfaithful to Eddard. As far as I can remember, there are no such hints. But my memory certainly isn't as good as others on these boards.

We shall see what the others say.

 

[Lost Beyond Belief]

Thanks! I cant find anything in print about possible dads, however there might have been a namedrop in the HBO series. Since that is not cannon I wont go there. Deux ex machina works brilliantly on telly, but not so much in a long wonderful book series.

 

[The Imp]

Thanks! I cant find anything in print about possible dads, however there might have been a namedrop in the HBO series. Since that is not cannon I wont go there. Deux ex machina works brilliantly on telly, but not so much in a long wonderful book series.

The TV series isn't cannon but I think the double Ds know things we don't. What did you notice?

 

[Lost Beyond Belief]

ok, but just affirming I am a book fan

3:01 when Robb and Cat arrive at Harrenhall, Cat takes particular fond notice of a dead man... Robb says "Sir Mallistar" then Cat looks at the dagger in his heart and says softly "Sir Jeremy...he was my father's bannerman".

Now, making a point of telling us first and last names of a character not in the book series, in a 53 minute episode where I believe EVERY word is important (no time to mince) and a very guarded but obviously upset Cat means that he must be someone that they want us to know. Might just be that she is worried about her father, but it seems like everything that D and D include will move the plot along.

When I looked up his name to see if he was mentioned anywhere, I came up with zero entries.

 

[Boaz]

Relax....

I'm here now.

I'll take care of this.

I don't use smilies but if I did, then I'd use the "rolleyes" now.

LBB, Welcome! Great first post.... really. I've never suspected nor have I seen any posts that suggest Catelyn ever was unfaithful to Eddard... so I'm excited to mull this one over.

LBB, if you've not read through ADWD, then please avoid the rest of this post. It will spoil ASOS, AFFC, and ADWD. I'm also going to throw in some of the biggest theories out there regarding parentage and who is alive and dead... so if you don't want to know these, then stop reading.

I cannot really refute any of your ideas beyond what Imp already posted.

But I'd say that just as we look through Eddard's, Jaime's, and Barristan's POVs and memories to find clues for Jon's (and Tyrion's) parentage, we should look through Eddard's and Catelyn's POVs to find clues for Sansa's true parents. I have not yet reread Eddard's and Catelyn's POVs in this light, but my gut instinct says there is nothing there. Eddard and Catelyn are dead... so who else can tell us of the first three years that Eddard anc Catelyn were together in Winterfell? Maester Luwin, Steward Poole, Ser Rodrik, Septa Mordane, Jory, Jullen, Farlen, Gage, Mikken, Septon Chayle, Lord Karstark, all the Tallharts, most of the Glovers, and half the nobles of the North are dead. Who has this information to give it to Sansa and to us? Benjen? He's either gone, dead, or undead. We suspect that Howland Reed holds the secrets of Jon's birth and that Varys also knows... possibly Littlefinger, Pycelle, Barristan, Connington, and Ashara Dayne as well. But if Eddard is not Sansa's father, who else knew besides Catelyn? Are you going to suggest that she met secretly with Littlefinger? Baelish as Sansa's father is a bit disturbing, but actually semi-delicious since he is now posing as her natural father. Until I reread Eddard's and Catelyn's POVs with this theory in mind, I'll continue to think that Imp is correct... It would dfeinitely be a great surpise, and I honestly don't think that GRRM has set the table well enough for it, so it would pretty much be a deux ex machina moment if it occurred

If Catelyn had bedded another man, I think we might have picked up a bit more of either animosity towards Eddard, an unknown sense of regret, a softening towards Jon, or worries that Eddard does not love Sansa enough. And I don't think we get any of these... She's harsh to Jon... She's frustrated by Eddard's affection to Jon... She's comfortable with Eddard's love to all of her children... And she's only regretful about quantifiable things; Jon, Hoster, Edmure, Lysa, Petyr, losing herself during Bran's coma, her loss of her daughters, and her abandonment of Rickon.

But the biggest problem I have with this theory is the number of bastards... especially surprise bastards... that we'll have in the story. The big one (and probably the worst kept secret on the internet) is that Jon is not Eddard's son. At least half of the fans of the books and the show will not see this one coming when it is revealed... and it will blow them away. The other shocker will be the multiple revelations of the other children of Aerys II, the Mad King. Tyrion, Cersei, and Jaime might all be his children. Okay, so I don't know this for sure, but I think it's true... and if it is, then how many more secret highborn ******* revelations can come out in the last two books? I just don't think there is room for GRRM to use this plot device after Jon and the Lannisters.

Those are the problems I see, but as I said... I've not reread with this theory in mind.

On the plus side...

1. The relationship between Littlefinger and Sansa is already intriguing and this theory would take it up another level or two.

2. Many people expect Jon to be one of the heads of the dragon. If Dany is barren and Jon is her husband, then the third head needs to be female to secure a blood heir to the Targ dynasty. We already know Jon's penchant for redheads. [Sansa could also claim Winterfell if Rickon never comes back. If Tyrion were killed, Sansa might also claim Casterly Rock. If Sansa marries Harry and Harry and Robert Arryn both die, then Sansa might also claim the Eyrie. If Edmure dies childless and the Blackfish is killed, then Sansa might also claim Riverrun. Sansa might be the most eligible lady in the land... forget Asha, Arianne, Cersei, Myrcella, and Margaery.] Soooooooo.... if Eddard is not Sansa's father and Eddard is not Jon's father, then they're not related at all.

3. Mayhaps there are clues in Arya's first POV. Remember she was worried, when she was very young, because she did not look like any of her siblings? She was afraid she was a ******* because she did not look like her siblings... but she absolutely looks like a Stark. Sansa used to always make sure that Arya knew that Jon was not their full brother... she loved to point out that he was a *******.

4. In AGOT, Sansa used to dream of knights and ladies living in fairy tales. She's found out that knights are not what they seem. She's found out that Kings and Queen Regents are not who the tales say they are. She's had all the illusions stripped away... except for the fact that she's not even a lady.

5. Sansa Snow has a nice ring to it.

6. Varys calls his spies little birds. They're orphans... and many of them are probably bastards. Sandor calls Sansa little bird. Sansa is now an orphan... and maybe a *******.

7. SanSan. Years ago, during the heyday of the combination names of celebrity couples, i.e. BenJen, TomKat, et al., I proposed a moniker for Sandor and Sansa... SanSan. Since he's not a knight, since he's crippled, since he's a monster... and now since she's not a lady, maybe they'll hook up. SanSan.

LBB, I look forward to your ideas. If you can find more concrete evidence in Eddard's, Catelyn's or Arya's POVs, please show us!

Edit: What is double D/D and D?

 

[The Imp]

Very tough to read if there's anything there emotionally when Cat says that, but good catch, the fact that then mentioned it makes it noteworthy.

I took the liberty of recording and posting that clip. I hope it's allowed/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPjojvZjGhg

 

[Lost Beyond Belief]

Hi there and thank you for the kind response!

D/D and D are the writers of the HBO series, they are responsible for most of the episodes that have been seen so far . They are David Benioff and DB Weiss

I am laughing so hard at some of your responses, I have not had so much fun on a Friday night in a long time!

Out of order reactions:
5 and 7. Almost lost it laughing... you are too funny and I will make sure not to be taking tea while reading, as it would have ended up all over my monitor! SanSan... Sansa Snow. Ok my idea is sounding more and more crackpot but this is worth it
3. I had forgotten the POV of Arya... she would of course compare herself to her older sister for looks..but it may in fact be the sister that is playing "one of these things is not like the other"
4. So very true. She just does not fit into that dark brooding Stark mold we know about. And the one Stark women that we know a bit about is Lyanna, and Eddard says Arya is so much like her.
6. The Little Bird moniker... we read it a lot, I forgot to bring that up so thank you for mentioning it. Varys and the Hound like her to a bird.
1. Oh gosh, isn't Littlefinger's self proclaimed sigil a mockingbird?

 

[The Imp]

1. Oh gosh, isn't Littlefinger's self proclaimed sigil a mockingbird?

Which might be the reason some of us have referred to him as Middlefinger I think it was Boaz that I first saw say that.

 

[Koopa]

@Lost, i've never given this much thought, because of a statement Jon says early in the books: A direwolf pup for every of his children. Stark, not Tully have a connection to Direwolves. Ad as short as it was Sansa had a direwolf. Hers was more ladylike and the smallest of the litter, one might say that this is a reference not only to Sansa character, but to the fact that genetically the genes she received from the Tully side from her parents run stronger in her than in the other children begot by Eddard and Catelyn.(Every other child seem to have more wild aspects to them) Still part Stark though.

@Boaz, everyone always glotches over this because she remanined unbedded, but for all Littlefingers machinations Sansa remains married to Tyrion. Even if Tyrion dies, that won't make the marriage go away. That would make her a widow. So unless the new High Septon absolves/annuls the wedding (which may take quite a bit of convincing/certain concessions given the type of man GRRM is depicting him as) she is by law a Lannister.

 

[Boaz]

Yeah, I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing. Sansa Lannister is her legal name. But her real legal status depends upon who is on the Iron Throne.

If the Lannisters control the King, then Sansa can be Lady Lannister or they can declare her guilty of regicide and kill her. They may even claim that Tyrion bedded her.

If the Targaryens control the throne, then they can marry her, pardon her, assist her or call her traitor.

Let's say Middlefinger becomes Hand or Regent, he could easily declare Sansa's marriage invalid by reason that Joffrey was not the true king and had no right to coerce Sansa to marry Tyrion... or he could buy off the High Septon to declare that the old High Septon was a heretic.

In the Seven Kingdoms, might makes right. For example, Margaery is still passing herself off as a virgin even though she's on her third husband... it just so happens that her father is currently the richest lord with the biggest army.

Before he put himself in Lord Frey's hands, Robb could say whatever he wanted and do whatever he wanted because he had an army at his back.

Walder Frey broke religious and social laws by murdering his guests, but the Iron Throne rewarded him for it.

Joffrey broke tradition and probably royal and religious law by sacking Barristan.

Robb and Balon both declared themselves kings because they could.

Renly declared himself King of the Seven Kingdoms even though he knew there were at least three others with better claims.

It all depends upon who gains control as to Sansa's status as wife or girl, heir or traitor, kingslayer or loyalist, virgin or slut, Lady Stark, Lady Hardyng (Arryn), Lady Tully, or Lady Lannister. The possibilities for Sansa's future are very high... and very low.

 

[The Imp]

@Lost, i've never given this much thought, because of a statement Jon says early in the books: A direwolf pup for every of his children. Stark, not Tully have a connection to Direwolves. Ad as short as it was Sansa had a direwolf. Hers was more ladylike and the smallest of the litter, one might say that this is a reference not only to Sansa character, but to the fact that genetically the genes she received from the Tully side from her parents run stronger in her than in the other children begot by Eddard and Catelyn.(Every other child seem to have more wild aspects to them) Still part Stark though.

@Boaz, everyone always glotches over this because she remanined unbedded, but for all Littlefingers machinations Sansa remains married to Tyrion. Even if Tyrion dies, that won't make the marriage go away. That would make her a widow. So unless the new High Septon absolves/annuls the wedding (which may take quite a bit of convincing/certain concessions given the type of man GRRM is depicting him as) she is by law a Lannister.

Sansa and Tyrion's marriage was never consumated, a point that GRRM made a big deal about. Given the "bedding after the wedding" tradition that we've seen, isn't this point a very big one?

 

[Boaz]

Sure, Sansa's marital virginity was the worst kept secret in the Red Keep, but if Mace Tyrell, the Hand of the King, produces a stained bedsheet and says it is from Sansa's wedding night... who will oppose him? Stannis? Maege Mormont? Prince Doran? They might all voice their contrary opinions, but none of them were in KL at the time. Mace, Tyrion, Cersei, Margaery, Loras, Olenna, Ser Boros, Ser Meryn, Ser Balon, and Pycelle were all there. If they control the throne and they say the marriage was consumated, then Sansa's only recourse will be to submit to an investigation by Septas or trial by combat.

On the other hand, a pro-Stark government would be very receptive to Sansa's claims of virginity. They could annull the marriage on any number of grounds... non-consumation, infidelity, coercion, fraud, mental instability, etc...

 

[juleska]

Their marriage was never consummated and Tyrion is an exiled traitor and accused of killing both his father and his king. Having the marriage annulled by any septon isn't a stretch, and that groundwork is even lain in the books, just can't recall the conversation off-hand.

 

[Tywin]

No annulment is necessary for the marriage between Tyrion and Sansa.

Tyrion is still married to Tysha, and therefore his second "marriage" is invalid.

I thought that was the whole point of having Jaime tell him the truth about Tysha while he was springing him from the dungeons.

 

[Koopa]

Nobody knows of that marriage though.
I can see where you all coming from, and i follow for the most part BUT at the sae time i'm no so quick as to be willing to entirely throw away her Lannister/Tyrion connection.