Crackpot Question from a Newbie

[The Imp]

Jaime knows of Tysha though, and most likely Cersei as well.

 

[Tywin]

When the Imp finds Tysha, it will not matter who knew of it before.

 

[Boaz]

I agree totally with Peeves. The marriage is not verifiable and it is not believable. Tyrion announcing, to the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms, that he's been married before will meet with the same level of belief that you'd have if I told you I'd been to the moon in my youth.

The Lannisters have already legally proven Tyrion to be a kingslayer and a liar. If the only people who know are Cersei and Jaime, why would they admit to it? The admission of Tyrion's previous marriage hurts the Lannisters and helps their enemies.

If Tyrion ends up the winning side (and I think his chances are very good), then he will do whatever Aegon or Dany needs him to do to secure the throne. He may well be required to give up Sansa... in which case he'll be rewarded with another nubile, fertile, and politcally important bride.

If he does become Lord Lannister, I cannot see how a marriage to Tysha would benefit him in any way. If the western lords were encouraged to be disdainful of Lannister authority by Lord Tytos' behavior, then what will they think of the kinslaying and kingslaying dwarf with a whore as his wife? Tyrion's descendents will suffer for generations until they produce multiple Lord Tywins to re-establish power by sword and blood.

Restarting his marriage with Tysha may provide Tyrion with relief and a sense of wholeness that he's been lacking since his father found out about Tysha. But his agony and sense of doom that he had with Shae in KL will be nothing compared to knowing that his bannermen all hate his wife and are probably plotting against his children.

I say whatever relationship Tyrion has with Tysha will always be personal and tragic and not public or enjoyable.

Just my impressions.

 

[Tywin]

I agree totally with Peeves. The marriage is not verifiable and it is not believable. Tyrion announcing, to the assembled lords of the Seven Kingdoms, that he's been married before will meet with the same level of belief that you'd have if I told you I'd been to the moon in my youth.

The Lannisters have already legally proven Tyrion to be a kingslayer and a liar. If the only people who know are Cersei and Jaime, why would they admit to it? The admission of Tyrion's previous marriage hurts the Lannisters and helps their enemies.

If Tyrion ends up the winning side (and I think his chances are very good), then he will do whatever Aegon or Dany needs him to do to secure the throne. He may well be required to give up Sansa... in which case he'll be rewarded with another nubile, fertile, and politcally important bride.

If he does become Lord Lannister, I cannot see how a marriage to Tysha would benefit him in any way. If the western lords were encouraged to be disdainful of Lannister authority by Lord Tytos' behavior, then what will they think of the kinslaying and kingslaying dwarf with a whore as his wife? Tyrion's descendents will suffer for generations until they produce multiple Lord Tywins to re-establish power by sword and blood.

Restarting his marriage with Tysha may provide Tyrion with relief and a sense of wholeness that he's been lacking since his father found out about Tysha. But his agony and sense of doom that he had with Shae in KL will be nothing compared to knowing that his bannermen all hate his wife and are probably plotting against his children.

I say whatever relationship Tyrion has with Tysha will always be personal and tragic and not public or enjoyable.

Just my impressions.

I disagree with every paragraph of your response.

I don't understand why anyone would need verify or believe that he's already married. There is nothing unbelievable about what happened, and regardless it's not like the lords get together and vote on it or anything. Imagine if someone told you that they didn't believe that you were married to your wife... you'd probably give them a pretty queer look.

Tyrion plays the game of thrones out of thrill in a life where no one accepts him. Tysha is the one person who he thinks ever really loved him, and his entire being will be set on keeping her once he finds her. His track record since finding out she is alive includes killing his father and running off to Essos in the opposite direction of anything that you can put in a frame of reference equivalent to the standards of genteel life in Westeros.

 

[Koopa]

A decade has past since the abrupt 'ending' of Tysha and Tyrion's wedding. Now i don't believe in a happy ending for the two. Even if he finds her, she will have probably long moved on with her life. And if she hasn't it's probably because her time with Tyrion didn't end well and left her permanently damaged. Regardless of how you wrap the tale up, it won't change the fact that she was raped by the lannister guardsman whilst Tyrion not only watched but went last... .

It must be said that Tyrion and Sansa(though Sansa herself is still mostly boring) storylines at the moment are on of the most intriguing, cause they can go so many different ways. Maybe the reason why i'm so unwilling to dismiss any further involvement between the two is because i liked the combination they made. Even though Sansa (even know and probably in the future) would not be able to bring herself to love him physically, politcally they'd make one awesome powerhouse.

Tyrion plays the game of thrones out of thrill in a life where no one accepts him. Tysha is the one person who he thinks ever really loved him, and his entire being will be set on keeping her once he finds her. His track record since finding out she is alive includes killing his father and running off to Essos in the opposite direction of anything that you can put in a frame of reference equivalent to the standards of genteel life in Westeros.

Tyrion , aside from sometimes just trying to do right plays the game of Thrones for his family. Out of love and hatred for them. The ripples produced from his actions are quite amazing. Even more so after he learned that Tysha died. He killed Tywin not only changing the balance of power in the South, but help change the situation in the North. Bolton and Frey had Tywin's backing, with that gone, all bets are off (even more so from before). He runs off to Essos where he lives with a cheesemonger quite lxuriousy i'd say, he then travels with Aegon whom he 'pushes' into invading westeros. Resulting in Kevan's death, and whatever else will come of that in the power struggle in King's Landing. Be it the fate of Cersei, alliance of lion and rose, Varys possible doom and thus a removal of the spider as a player, .... I wouldn't be surprised if he finds himself a seat in Dany's council (what is basically equivalent to the seat he had in king's Landing - in this case his power backed by Dany instead of Tywin). Truly he is a little man snarling in the midst of it all casting large shadows

 

[Tywin]

Oh, I don't doubt that Tysha is damaged goods at this point, and I expect that once located she will hate him (just one more painful insult by the gods who inexplicably love to torment the Imp), but he will still cling to her and throw aside the expectations of society, which include his marriage to Sansa Stark...

or how about this for a crackpot theory...

The three heads of the dragon don't refer to three husbands/mates of Dany, they refer to three wives of Tyrion: Tysha, Sansa... Penny?

Completely inspired by the internet meme with Peter Dinklage's face on the side of a building with the caption (P)IMP.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

Relax....

I'm here now.

I'll take care of this.

...

But I'd say that just as we look through Eddard's, Jaime's, and Barristan's POVs and memories to find clues for Jon's (and Tyrion's) parentage, we should look through Eddard's and Catelyn's POVs to find clues for Sansa's true parents. I have not yet reread Eddard's and Catelyn's POVs in this light, but my gut instinct says there is nothing there. Eddard and Catelyn are dead... so who else can tell us of the first three years that Eddard anc Catelyn were together in Winterfell? ... half the nobles of the North are dead. Who has this information to give it to Sansa and to us? .... if Eddard is not Sansa's father, who else knew besides Catelyn? Are you going to suggest that she met secretly with Littlefinger? Baelish as Sansa's father is a bit disturbing, but actually semi-delicious since he is now posing as her natural father. Until I reread Eddard's and Catelyn's POVs with this theory in mind, I'll continue to think that Imp is correct... It would dfeinitely be a great surpise, and I honestly don't think that GRRM has set the table well enough for it, so it would pretty much be a deux ex machina moment if it occurred


Those are the problems I see, but as I said... I've not reread with this theory in mind.

On the plus side...
...
3. Mayhaps there are clues in Arya's first POV. Remember she was worried, when she was very young, because she did not look like any of her siblings? She was afraid she was a ******* because she did not look like her siblings... but she absolutely looks like a Stark. Sansa used to always make sure that Arya knew that Jon was not their full brother... she loved to point out that he was a *******.

As always Boaz, a very thorough examination of a crackpot theory. I applaud you ser. As your post was extremely long, I have chopped it down to fit in my quote section, I hope you don't mind.

In regards to the first bold part of your post, I can think of one persone who would know if Sansa wasn't Eddards father... Her real father, whomever he might be, and assuming he isn't one of the dead lords of the north. I also think their might be clues in Sansa, arya, bran and perhaps even Jon's chapters. They are all POV characters who interacted with Cat allot in the beginning.

to address the second bold part, I just started another reread of the series on Friday and, as is natural, it drew me back to this forum and i subsequently read this theory. shortly after, I was reading a Sansa chapter and in it she remembers asking Cat how Arya could be her sister and thinks maybe gumpkins stole her real sister and replaced her with arya. This is Cat's reply

"[Cat] had only laughed and said no, Arya was her daughter and Sansa's Trueborn sister, blood of their blood. Sansa could not think why [Cat] would want to lie about it so she supposed it had to be true"

Because this crackpot theory was fresh in my mind, I couldn't help reflect on the use of "Trueborn". Arya is her "Trueborn" daughter as opposed to Sansa not being trueborn? Blood of their blood is misleading because Sansa and Arya would both have Cat's blood but not necessarily Ned's. Again, perhaps just because I was thinking about this theory, I thought it was convenient that Sansa questioned Arya's parentage but not her own. Maybe if Arya had been asking this question, the answers might have been different.

I have a feeling I am grasping at straws and I don't actually doubt that Sansa is Ned's daughter, but I can certainly see how there might be reason to doubt.

 

[Lost Beyond Belief]

Rereading and thinking... if Littlefinger's end game is Sansa, and she is not a Stark... well, gosh darn he will have been plotting the long con for absolutely nothing for thousands of pages. So, sticking with my crackpot theory! It would take a brilliant author to pull that one off...

 

[joepan29]

I've only read thru once, so forgive me, but is there any possibility that Littlefinger is Sansa's father? He claims he wants to marry her off, but he looks at her a little differently. He also claims her as his *******. He has a history with Cat. Per GRRM's comments, this would definitely be one of the things LF knows too much about.

 

[joshrackley]

I don't think timelines match up for him to have fathered Sansa. He was shipped off from Riverrun after the failed duel with Brandon Stark and I don't know that Cat sees him again until King's Landing when Ned is Hand.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I've only read thru once, so forgive me, but is there any possibility that Littlefinger is Sansa's father? He claims he wants to marry her off, but he looks at her a little differently. He also claims her as his *******. He has a history with Cat. Per GRRM's comments, this would definitely be one of the things LF knows too much about.

Nah, the Tully girl that Littlefinger bedded was Lysa. We've already had a sort of a confirmation of that. Cat never wanted him. Besides, timelines don't match.

 

[joshrackley]

I can't remember if it's confirmed or not but it's at least strongly hinted that Littlefinger (or possibly someone else) got Lysa pregnant, thus the hastily arranged marriage to the much older Jon Arryn. Or does Lysa herself confirm it once Lord Baelish makes it to the Eyrie? Haven't quite gotten back to this point in the re-read.

 

[Anushka Mokosh]

I can't remember if it's confirmed or not but it's at least strongly hinted that Littlefinger (or possibly someone else) got Lysa pregnant, thus the hastily arranged marriage to the much older Jon Arryn. Or does Lysa herself confirm it once Lord Baelish makes it to the Eyrie? Haven't quite gotten back to this point in the re-read.

In her pre-death craze Lysa said: "I've always loved you. I've proved it, haven't I?" ... "I gave you my maiden's gift. I would have given you a son too, but they murdered him with moon tea, with tansy and mint and wormwood, a spoon of honey and a drop of permyroyal. It wasn't me, I never knew, I only drank what Father gave me"

It was hinted that he thought she was Catelyn.

 

[tangaloomababe]

There are some excellent theories here and I am almost buying it... But not quite. The bastards in the series have never been hidden as such, we've always known Jon Snow is a ******* and the same applies with Joffrey and his siblings but there has never even been mention that Sansa might be one. In fact it has always been made clear that the various offspring of Cat and Edard look like one or the other.

I also think given the fact that Sansa only had her direwolf for a short time that the bond may not have developed enough at the time Lady was killed.

 

[Gumboot]

Deux ex machina works brilliantly on telly, but not so much in a long wonderful book series.

No it doesn't. Deus ex machina is a gross sin in screenwriting, and a sign of an awful TV series.

 

[GonnaNeedaBiggerBoat]

Relax....

I'm here now.

I'll take care of this.

I don't use smilies but if I did, then I'd use the "rolleyes" now.

LBB, Welcome! Great first post.... really. I've never suspected nor have I seen any posts that suggest Catelyn ever was unfaithful to Eddard... so I'm excited to mull this one over.

LBB, if you've not read through ADWD, then please avoid the rest of this post. It will spoil ASOS, AFFC, and ADWD. I'm also going to throw in some of the biggest theories out there regarding parentage and who is alive and dead... so if you don't want to know these, then stop reading.

I cannot really refute any of your ideas beyond what Imp already posted.

But I'd say that just as we look through Eddard's, Jaime's, and Barristan's POVs and memories to find clues for Jon's (and Tyrion's) parentage, we should look through Eddard's and Catelyn's POVs to find clues for Sansa's true parents. I have not yet reread Eddard's and Catelyn's POVs in this light, but my gut instinct says there is nothing there. Eddard and Catelyn are dead... so who else can tell us of the first three years that Eddard anc Catelyn were together in Winterfell? Maester Luwin, Steward Poole, Ser Rodrik, Septa Mordane, Jory, Jullen, Farlen, Gage, Mikken, Septon Chayle, Lord Karstark, all the Tallharts, most of the Glovers, and half the nobles of the North are dead. Who has this information to give it to Sansa and to us? Benjen? He's either gone, dead, or undead. We suspect that Howland Reed holds the secrets of Jon's birth and that Varys also knows... possibly Littlefinger, Pycelle, Barristan, Connington, and Ashara Dayne as well. But if Eddard is not Sansa's father, who else knew besides Catelyn? Are you going to suggest that she met secretly with Littlefinger? Baelish as Sansa's father is a bit disturbing, but actually semi-delicious since he is now posing as her natural father. Until I reread Eddard's and Catelyn's POVs with this theory in mind, I'll continue to think that Imp is correct... It would dfeinitely be a great surpise, and I honestly don't think that GRRM has set the table well enough for it, so it would pretty much be a deux ex machina moment if it occurred

If Catelyn had bedded another man, I think we might have picked up a bit more of either animosity towards Eddard, an unknown sense of regret, a softening towards Jon, or worries that Eddard does not love Sansa enough. And I don't think we get any of these... She's harsh to Jon... She's frustrated by Eddard's affection to Jon... She's comfortable with Eddard's love to all of her children... And she's only regretful about quantifiable things; Jon, Hoster, Edmure, Lysa, Petyr, losing herself during Bran's coma, her loss of her daughters, and her abandonment of Rickon.

But the biggest problem I have with this theory is the number of bastards... especially surprise bastards... that we'll have in the story. The big one (and probably the worst kept secret on the internet) is that Jon is not Eddard's son. At least half of the fans of the books and the show will not see this one coming when it is revealed... and it will blow them away. The other shocker will be the multiple revelations of the other children of Aerys II, the Mad King. Tyrion, Cersei, and Jaime might all be his children. Okay, so I don't know this for sure, but I think it's true... and if it is, then how many more secret highborn ******* revelations can come out in the last two books? I just don't think there is room for GRRM to use this plot device after Jon and the Lannisters.

Those are the problems I see, but as I said... I've not reread with this theory in mind.

On the plus side...

1. The relationship between Littlefinger and Sansa is already intriguing and this theory would take it up another level or two.

2. Many people expect Jon to be one of the heads of the dragon. If Dany is barren and Jon is her husband, then the third head needs to be female to secure a blood heir to the Targ dynasty. We already know Jon's penchant for redheads. [Sansa could also claim Winterfell if Rickon never comes back. If Tyrion were killed, Sansa might also claim Casterly Rock. If Sansa marries Harry and Harry and Robert Arryn both die, then Sansa might also claim the Eyrie. If Edmure dies childless and the Blackfish is killed, then Sansa might also claim Riverrun. Sansa might be the most eligible lady in the land... forget Asha, Arianne, Cersei, Myrcella, and Margaery.] Soooooooo.... if Eddard is not Sansa's father and Eddard is not Jon's father, then they're not related at all.

3. Mayhaps there are clues in Arya's first POV. Remember she was worried, when she was very young, because she did not look like any of her siblings? She was afraid she was a ******* because she did not look like her siblings... but she absolutely looks like a Stark. Sansa used to always make sure that Arya knew that Jon was not their full brother... she loved to point out that he was a *******.

4. In AGOT, Sansa used to dream of knights and ladies living in fairy tales. She's found out that knights are not what they seem. She's found out that Kings and Queen Regents are not who the tales say they are. She's had all the illusions stripped away... except for the fact that she's not even a lady.

5. Sansa Snow has a nice ring to it.

6. Varys calls his spies little birds. They're orphans... and many of them are probably bastards. Sandor calls Sansa little bird. Sansa is now an orphan... and maybe a *******.

7. SanSan. Years ago, during the heyday of the combination names of celebrity couples, i.e. BenJen, TomKat, et al., I proposed a moniker for Sandor and Sansa... SanSan. Since he's not a knight, since he's crippled, since he's a monster... and now since she's not a lady, maybe they'll hook up. SanSan.

LBB, I look forward to your ideas. If you can find more concrete evidence in Eddard's, Catelyn's or Arya's POVs, please show us!

Edit: What is double D/D and D?

Boaz, can you direct me to the thread where you flesh out your "Tywin is a cuckhold" theory please?

 

[Tywin]

Boaz, can you direct me to the thread where you flesh out your "Tywin is a cuckhold" theory please?

GNBB, I think you'll find that theory in a number of places. This thread should cover a bit of it: http://www.sffchronicles.co.uk/forum/8403-the-dragon-has-three-heads.html

The basic theory is that the mad King Aerys II was something of a serial rapist and he had a thing for Tywin's wife. Plenty of debate about whether or not this led to Tywin's leaving his position as Hand, and later turning on the crown.

 

[GonnaNeedaBiggerBoat]

Thanks Tywin--actually just finished reading that thread.

 

[Tywin]

Might want to check out the Jon Snow thread as well.