Is God real in game of thrones?

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canterdaryl

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I know this may seem like a strange question but due to recent events in the show, Beric Dondarrion being resurrected, it would seem that The Lord of light is real and gives his believers divine powers. Is this the case? Or does melisandre and others just have magical powers without the help of a god. I would really dislike it if god is real in the world of game of thrones as this proof of a higher powers existence would lead to so many other questions? I don't mind spoilers if it answers the question of gods existence in game of thrones.
 
Magic is certainly real. And there are some indications that the religions at least reflect sources of metaphysical power. But that's all we know at this point. Whether the religions are correct interpretations of the nature of those powers, or just human attempts to explain the mysterious, is another story.
 
There is proof that the Red Priests' god has an effect on the world. Whatever R'hllor is, he's got power.

The other religions that we know of are a bit more evasive on the question. For the Starks, the old gods exist. The gods of the Faith (septons and all that) might have something to them, too. The Many-Faced God might have something to him, too. The harpy gods of the old east, well, who knows?
 
If I recall correctly, Thoros used to use something like wildfire, rather than invoking divine power, to make it look as if his sword was on fire (when he took part in tourneys). He wasn't much of a priest, and yet now he wields the power to bring someone back to life.

To me, that new power looks more like a consequence of the return of magic to the world than the (inevitably) timeless effects of a god's blessing.
 
Just what is R'hllor? In the eyes of his believers, he is the god of life and fire that stands opposed to the god of death, whom they associate with the Others.

All power has an origin, a source. Belief in R'hllor increased as things went from bad to worse in Westeros. On Dragonstone in particular. That might have something to do with it, as divine power might be tied in GRRM's world to having believers or at least having believers present (which are two quite different things really).

Thoros as I understand it was rather lax in his beliefs before Robert's death. Then he began to believe with much more ardor. A priest who doesn't have faith is well not that effective. Stannis came to believe and then M. could do more dramatic things for him, in R'hllor's name.



*** SPOILERS ***

Finally, it could be that R'hllor becomes stronger or at least more upfront with his miracles as the other god becomes stronger (that is, as winter comes on), if they are in dualistic opposition as M. explains to Stannis and later Jon.
 
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I'm tempted to put the resurrections into the realm of "magic," BUT, I think that there can be something divine there as well. The answer is: I honestly don't know.

On the magic front . . .
Blood, life, and death seem to be keys that can help unlock the secrets of magic. Blood for Drogo’s funeral pyre when Dany hatched her dragons. Death of the witch that made his wound fester. The life of her unborn child. One could argue that these three things are what brought the dragons to life. No god necessary, no divine intervention if you will.

As for Donarrion, perhaps these elements were all present when Thoros revived him (not once, but multiple times). It’s hard to say. Perhaps that was more divine-related. But, keep in mind that not all who are raised by these “priests” come back the same. Dondarrion is unique so far. Others have not done so well (and there will be others). Furthermore, how does this relate to the White Walkers beyond the wall? Is it all magic? Is only some of it magic? Is it a necromantic thing? Or something else?

I think an argument can be made for either religion or magic to be perfectly honest.

For me, I am intrigued by both ideas. On one hand, magic would explain a lot and it shows us that there is a price for magic such as this. On the other hand, the notion of the gods being real (or facets of one true god) are interesting as well, considering that the gods come across as very ominous, strange, mysterious, and very very creepy in the books—especially when you get to the Faceless men (Jaqen H’gar from season 2 – the assassin/shapeshifter who helped Arya).

Even with The Lord of Light’s seemingly good side, there is an equally disturbing bad side. Need of royal blood, shadow-assassins, etc.

I think you can see why both would fit. :)

Excellent conversation, though, and something I’ve always had ideas about myself.

As for who R'hllor is, check out this wiki site. It does a great job at explaining.

http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/R'hllor

Some spoilers, so beware. A snippit:

The Religion, is based on a dualistic, manichean view of the world, R'hllor, the god of light, heat, and life; and its antithesis the God whose name should not be spoken, the god of ice and death. They are locked in an eternal struggle over the fate of the world, a struggle that according the ancient prophecy from the books of Asshai, will only end when Azor Ahai, the messianic figure will return wielding a flaming sword called Lightbringer, the Red Sword of Heroes, and raise dragons of stone. According to Martin, this faith is roughly based upon the fire worship of Zoroastrianism. This religion's dualistic aspects of a good and an evil god are also inspired by Zoroastrianism, along with the Cathars of Medieval Europe who were annihilated during the Albigensian Crusade.
Click to expand...

There is more in the link. :)
 
Yeah, I did think of Zoroastrianism and gnosticism (of which Catharism is one prominent historical strain), in reference to worship of R'hllor.

I would warn against separating magic and religion. Most magic systems are rooted in some kind of spiritual belief, even if not a stone and mortar house of worship like the Septs that the great houses of Westeros patronize. Belief is the key in any kind of out of the ordinary endeavor, whether it's the practitioner who follows his or her belief or if the one being acted upon needs to believe.


*** SPOILERS ***:

Thoros speaks of a fire that he is using to keep Beric alive--he can only keep one person alive in this way at a time it seems--which he then transfers to Lady Cat. It is not a true resurrection but more akin to an unnatural life.

In the house of the Faceless Men, Arya is told that changing the face is one of the higher arts that takes years to perfect, and that doing so should not be undertaken without needing to do so. Death as the ultimate god is one thread running through GRRM's writing on religion--whether for the Faceless Men (and Syrio Forel) or for the Faith of the Seven, in the person of The Stranger. The nameless Old Gods might be revealed in more detail later.

Ultimately, it might be revealed how these different worshiped entities interact or which one(s) be true gods. I think it can be said that religion is important for the peoples of Martin's world. Magic is often rooted in one system of belief or another.
 
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BetaWolf said:
Ultimately, it might be revealed how these different worshiped entities interact or which one(s) be true gods. I think it can be said that religion is important for the peoples of Martin's world. Magic is often rooted in one system of belief or another.
Click to expand...

Beta, I have always wondered if there is a chaos VS reason (or light/logic) element going on here with the Others (white walkers) representing chaos - along with warging, the wildlings, Bran's situation at the end of ADWD, etc. And The Lord of Light being more of the fire/reason. I don't know. I'm still working on that in my head. :)

As to where the Stranger/Death fits in . . . just not sure, but it creeps me out. Always. :)
 
Since season 3 episode 5 (i haven't read the books) i cant help shake the feeling that Beric being resurected seemingly by a god has just been pulled out of the hat so to speak. Don't get me wrong, i know this is a fantasy setting, i can fully understand magic for example, as it has been established since the very beginning that magic exists in the world of game of thrones. Also, from what i've experienced in the show magic has been treated with a good deal of literary respect (meaning that magic hasnt been used in every scenario where the writers didnt want someone to die or for a non-sensical twist). But having a character come back from the dead because he was revived by a god of all things is very strange and it would appear to have little or no background infomation behind it to explain why this has happened. I understand the belief in god or gods by the people of westeros but the actual existence of a god being revealed out of the blue like this is very puzzling.
 
As brilliant as the show is, there is a lot that it does badly (introducing new characters and not giving their names for a few episodes, for example), and the resurrection of Beric is one of those things.

In the books, we hear rumours every now and then of what the Lightning Lord, Beric Dondarrion, has been up to. He shows up in places, fights people (if memory serves, he engages small parts of the Lannister forces here and there), and dies. Whenever we hear the rumours, they're usually accompanied by people wondering if this man really is Dondarrion, whether the exploits are true, and whether he is actually alive. So when we come to resurrection scene in the books, we realise what has actually been happening.

In the show, Dondarrion is never mentioned after Ned sends him after the Mountain in the first series, so when we reach the resurrection scene, it's as much as shock to us that a dead man rises as it was to the Hound. If you read comments around the Internet, you'll find that a lot of people didn't even know that Dondarrion died in his fight with the Hound, and instead figure that Thoros simply healed him.

It's a shame that the show can't weave in all the little things, but it's understandable.
 
@Lenny - Thanks for your response but my confusion is not to due to me not being familiar with Dondarrion, it is due to him seemingly being revived by a god out of the blue, this confusion is why i started this thread and the people who have answered seem to have different views some say it is unknown if god exists, others say god does exist while others say is just magic in general that caused the resurrection of dondarrion.
 
Could Melisandre birthing a shadow creature and the resurection of Donarrion be considered a plot hole? Or an unexplained event? As the idea that 'god did it' seems to unbelievable to me.
 
canter, I don't know about plot hole. Elaborate? :D

I do think that Melisandre's magic came from her and Stannis getting "super friendly" and possibly might have had something to do with the burning of the religious idols. If there was more to her rituals, we didn't see them. That, I see as magic.

As for Dondarrion, I feel like magic could explain it better than religion.

Lenny said:
As brilliant as the show is, there is a lot that it does badly (introducing new characters and not giving their names for a few episodes, for example), and the resurrection of Beric is one of those things.

In the books, we hear rumours every now and then of what the Lightning Lord, Beric Dondarrion, has been up to. He shows up in places, fights people (if memory serves, he engages small parts of the Lannister forces here and there), and dies. Whenever we hear the rumours, they're usually accompanied by people wondering if this man really is Dondarrion, whether the exploits are true, and whether he is actually alive. So when we come to resurrection scene in the books, we realise what has actually been happening.

In the show, Dondarrion is never mentioned after Ned sends him after the Mountain in the first series, so when we reach the resurrection scene, it's as much as shock to us that a dead man rises as it was to the Hound. If you read comments around the Internet, you'll find that a lot of people didn't even know that Dondarrion died in his fight with the Hound, and instead figure that Thoros simply healed him.

It's a shame that the show can't weave in all the little things, but it's understandable.
Click to expand...

I know so many people who are lost in some form or fashion. I actually made a cheat sheet for my non-book readin' folks.
 
It's difficult, canterdaryl, to answer your question with evidence to back it up without talking about events in the books which occur after this week's episode of the show (whose contents I only know about from reading the reviews: I haven't got HBO or Sky Atlantic).



The only answer I can give, in such circumstances, is that:
  1. the Lord of Light, whether this entity exist or not, is worshipped by people all over the place;
  2. some of those believers perform what may be miracles or may be the result of magic. (For obvious reasons, I can't say here whether such "miracles" are on the scale of resurrecting people, more significant than that or less so than that.)
In such circumstances, it's best if you watch under the assumption that the plot holes you believe may be there are not actually plot holes (until proved otherwise).


(I can say, though, that those of us who've read to the end of book five, A Dance with Dragons, are still none the wiser as to whether magic is 'god-based' or otherwise. We're hoping books six and seven give us an answer to that.)
 
@ - ursa major
So what you're trying to say is that further information on these divine events are explained in the books. Is that right? If so, is explanation given before beric gets resurrected or after? As i'm currently reading a game of thrones at the moment.
 
Canter, I don't think Martin ever gives us the answer. He's a proponent of subtlety in a sense. He's been quoted as saying that too much magic can ruin good fantasy. And, I know I've read a few of his interviews where he says the same about prophecy and likes to play around with a prophecy's authenticity VS what we try to create as self-realized prophecy. So, he's a sneaky little bugger.

You also might find this quote interesting as well, canter:

Martin tries to slowly reveal in how far the many different kinds of magic in the Ice and Fire world may be manifestations of the same mysterious supernatural forces, leaving the reader free to wonder about the validity, teachings and supernatural power of the competing religions, allowing for a sense of wonder, for things that escape the net of explanation in terms of the physical sciences. Martin regards any religion's claim to truth with suspicion, as he does the claims of real religions. The series' gods, he said, are unlikely to appear deus-ex-machina in Westeros.
Click to expand...

I would assume that deus-ex-machina might fall into the category of "successful resurrection," though I don't consider Dondarrion or any of the others who are raised to be fully successful. There is actually kind of hierarchy of "Wow, this kinda worked," and "Oops, well, this one's not so useful." :)
 
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