YA needs more PoC characters

[AnyaKimlin]

The first black character I ever wrote wasn't black in my head initially. In my mind she was my Gran and her sisters rolled into one with dash of Edna from Hairspray. However four independent beta readers assumed she was black after she made a comment about Blackpool not being the Caribbean. They were right the story did make more sense if she was black - I was able to add a wonderful back story. However I have written her as a Liverpool-Irish matriarch type. (Nellie Boswell/Lily Savage)

The words that come out of her mouth were things I remember my Gran and her sisters saying. It isn't YA though. I let my characters reveal who or what they are themselves.

 

[Nerds_feather]

And, sadly, given we humans seem addicted to categorising things, and each other, even a truly colour-blind (or gender-blind) world populated by humans** will have plenty of 'us and them' divisions. As writers, we simply have to decide which of these are most important to the society/societies we are describing. (And as we're mostly writing in third person close, or first person, we can't even pretend that these divisions are hidden from public view, because we have access to our PoV character(s) opinions and observations.)

Spot on.

 

[DarthDandelion]

That's not true at all in my experience and of course we can't be colorblind always but often I see my self as just another person and go months without thinking I'm a part of minority, that I'm black until some well meaning non-minority person ask me how it is to be that minority like I see my whole world from that POV. You can't treat people equally if you always remind them why they stick out.

This is the point the speaker was making at the workshop:

As a result, white people saying "I don't see color" tends to piss off a lot of POC living in racialized, white-dominated societies, who respond: "oh really? You do? Because I don't have that luxury." I've observed a number of interactions that have played out along these lines.

I think it's important to acknowledge that those belonging to minority groups do often (though not always) stick out, whether we like it or not. Just as women stick out in a patriarchal society. It isn't ideal but it's often the reality and denying that reality doesn't do anyone any favors. Of course I also see it as equally important to recognize that individuals will have unique experiences that might not represent the average person within whatever group they fall into. This point was brought up by a guy in one of my sociology classes where he pointed out that although he recognized he was technically a minority, he never felt that way as he never experienced any sort of direct discrimination. And this could also lead to some interesting plot points and character development itself.

This is difficult topic and I think it's unfair to expect YA to be more balanced than adult fiction.

Agreed. Unfortunately I think in a lot of ways it's much more important for YA fiction to be more balanced because fiction or not, these are notions and stereotypes that are being stuck into kids' heads. Challenging the way things are currently, ideally for the better, is good for youth and for adults.

Although I realize that's completely idealistic and unrealistic, it'd just be nice if it could work out that way

 

[Stephen Palmer]

... I think in a lot of ways it's much more important for YA fiction to be more balanced because fiction or not, these are notions and stereotypes that are being stuck into kids' heads. Challenging the way things are currently, ideally for the better, is good for youth and for adults.

Although I realize that's completely idealistic and unrealistic, it'd just be nice if it could work out that way

Couldn't agree more.

 

[Connavar]

DarthDandelion

I have thought similar things and there need a healthy debate on what can be in YA books. Big publishers dont care as this topic shows they wont even have girls on the cover.

Adults that dont work for the big publishers must work to make it more balanced gender,ethnicity wise in books for children,young adults. In this country, culture they take it very seriously to make YA books for every kid. Personally i have more trouble with gender imbalance in YA books. There are too few books in YA genre fiction that is written for girls.

 

[thaddeus6th]

I think I read somewhere that girls easily identify with a male protagonist but boys find it hard to do likewise with a female protagonist. Could be wrong, but that would explain why there are more heroes than heroines.

 

[Connavar]

I think I read somewhere that girls easily identify with a male protagonist but boys find it hard to do likewise with a female protagonist. Could be wrong, but that would explain why there are more heroes than heroines.

No there is more male heroes because both boys, girls are thought boy/men are the norm in protoganist roles in books,tv,films. Its still a mans world, not totally gender equality, otherwise we are fooling ourselves.

Publishers think male heroes sell more. Same thing in film,tv shows. For every Ripley,Buffy, Nikita,Xena there is 10 000 male heroes.

My female cousins and sisters read YA,adult fiction starring Katniss and co because they want to get away from the male hero POV that is the norm. Its normal to want read from your own gender POV. Gender is more important to who you are than your ethnicity, race. I can relate to any man of any race,ethnicity when i read books. Its harder for men,boys to identify with female protoganist because we almost never have to. There is millions of books with male protoganist to choose from.....

 

[Toby Frost]

It's a bit off-topic, really, although I would add that I find the point about not putting the heroine on the cover of Bioshock Infinite that Thaddeus mentions really quite staggering. What astonished me isn't the gripe of "Oh, no, not another PC concession" that you sometimes hear when a character who isn't a white chap is introduced, but the idea that people won't buy the game at all if there is a woman on the cover.

What kind of wretched state are you in if the presence of someone with lady bits ruins the whole concept for you? For one thing, using public transport must be a nightmare. If you look at the picture in question, it's (a) of a type used on pulp novels and action films from time immemorial, featuring a grizzled man with a gun and a worried girl who he's probably rescuing, and (b) it's hardly as if she's making the place look unsightly. Now, man-with-gun-and-girl-in-background may well be sexist or the like, although it seems pretty minor in the scale of global misogyny. But to actually think that the inclusion of a girl at all ruins the game is just demented.

It's the kind of retrograde gibberish you'd expect from some deranged Bin Ladenite ("The very presence of the infidel harlot pollutes the purity of the internet... etc"). I only hope that the people who kick off about this are dim 10 year olds ("Liking girls is well gay"), in which case, they shouldn't be playing something that's for grown-ups, and the makers of the game should be ignoring them.

I mean, really. End of rant.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

Patriarchal culture assumes men are the norm, from which women deviate. Wrongly.

 

[AnyaKimlin]

This is part of why I am nervous going from using a male main character to a female on in the second book. I've no doubt readers will be fine but I am worried from a publishing POV.

 

[Nerds_feather]

What kind of wretched state are you in if the presence of someone with lady bits ruins the whole concept for you?

A very sad place.

 

[DarthDandelion]

A lot of studies actually contradict the notion that men aren't interested in women's stories. In fact, some gaming surveys I read a while back actually said that most men prefer a female protagonist. One of the reasons mentioned was that gaming (or fiction) is about living a life totally different from your own, so experiencing things from a woman's POV isn't a problem at all. Also, there is little actual evidence to suggest that female centered games sell any less than games with a male protagonist. I don't know if that's still the case for fiction with a female lead since I haven't seen anything on that (I'm way more involved in the gaming community), but I would assume it isn't that different.

Just another aspect of how living in a patriarchal society can create misrepresentations for both men and women :/

 

[Triceratops]

I agree with the sentiments here, wholeheartedly. My last thriller had a paraplegic, a black nurse and a gay therapist as the main players. And I can tell you it was fun, exciting and had a built-in diversity that prompted a lot of light conflict and humorous exchanges. And it seemed effortless in drawing out their personalities. I've just finished a YA and my main character is a Native American gal, which encouraged me to do some research--couldn't be happier with the outcome.

chris

 

[Parson]

Is YA that much different than general novels?

If I go to the book store and look at paperbacks in general, I'll guarantee that there will be women on the cover of far more than half of them. When I look at the SF books that are my stock in trade for reading, in the past 20 years the number of female leads vs. male leads in the stories I would put at something like 60female/40male. I sometimes find myself longing for a strong male lead in a story. It seems that all of the characters I find most interesting are female. The two that jump immediately to mind are Honor Harrington and Elli Dorsai.

On the other hand there is a veritable dearth of PoC (I learned a new acronym!). Or at least PoC that I recognize as being PoC.


*Interesting point about anglos being the ones who think in terms of colorblind society.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

This is part of why I am nervous going from using a male main character to a female on in the second book. I've no doubt readers will be fine but I am worried from a publishing POV.

All you do is assume everyone is human. Easy!

 

[AnyaKimlin]

All you do is assume everyone is human. Easy!

I assume everyone except publishers are I'm going to write it anyway.

 

[Kevin11]

I recall that there was a backlash against the "Hunger Games" movie because a character appeared on-screen as a PoC. I recall reading where one fan was so incensed that she said it ruined the entire movie for her. (Really? The color of a person's skin overshaowed everything else about the movie?)

The odd thing was, the way I read the book, the character was supposed to be a PoC, so the movie got it right. Thus, I don't see what all the fuss was about.

The short answer seems to be that there's a negative reaction to PoC characters. For instance, there are people who won't read a romance that sounds interesting if it turns out that the lead characters aren't Caucasian. The same is probably true in other genres, but there's nothing you can do about it. Personally, I think a great story is a great story, and that's true even if the lead characters aren't even human, a la Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

 

[Parson]

I recall that there was a backlash against the "Hunger Games" movie because a character appeared on-screen as a PoC. I recall reading where one fan was so incensed that she said it ruined the entire movie for her. (Really? The color of a person's skin overshaowed everything else about the movie?)

The odd thing was, the way I read the book, the character was supposed to be a PoC, so the movie got it right. Thus, I don't see what all the fuss was about.

The short answer seems to be that there's a negative reaction to PoC characters. For instance, there are people who won't read a romance that sounds interesting if it turns out that the lead characters aren't Caucasian. The same is probably true in other genres, but there's nothing you can do about it. Personally, I think a great story is a great story, and that's true even if the lead characters aren't even human, a la Jonathan Livingston Seagull.

Just when you think that the world might becoming a little more color blind!! (sigh!)

 

[The Bluestocking]

Am running a few months behind on this thread but... what Toby said.

Also, I'm really hoping that the success of The Hunger Games would persuade more publishers that female protagonists do really have a huge market out there. I tutor children who are learning English as a second language and we read YA fiction together - their favourite series so far? The Hunger Games. Even the boys liked Katniss!

It's a bit off-topic, really, although I would add that I find the point about not putting the heroine on the cover of Bioshock Infinite that Thaddeus mentions really quite staggering. What astonished me isn't the gripe of "Oh, no, not another PC concession" that you sometimes hear when a character who isn't a white chap is introduced, but the idea that people won't buy the game at all if there is a woman on the cover.

What kind of wretched state are you in if the presence of someone with lady bits ruins the whole concept for you? For one thing, using public transport must be a nightmare. If you look at the picture in question, it's (a) of a type used on pulp novels and action films from time immemorial, featuring a grizzled man with a gun and a worried girl who he's probably rescuing, and (b) it's hardly as if she's making the place look unsightly. Now, man-with-gun-and-girl-in-background may well be sexist or the like, although it seems pretty minor in the scale of global misogyny. But to actually think that the inclusion of a girl at all ruins the game is just demented.

It's the kind of retrograde gibberish you'd expect from some deranged Bin Ladenite ("The very presence of the infidel harlot pollutes the purity of the internet... etc"). I only hope that the people who kick off about this are dim 10 year olds ("Liking girls is well gay"), in which case, they shouldn't be playing something that's for grown-ups, and the makers of the game should be ignoring them.

I mean, really. End of rant.