The Dragon Reborn (Book 3) - Discussion Thread WITH SPOILERS

[Erin99]

Tear? Tear?! Thankfully, I got that one right, probably due to my natural propensity towards pronouncing vowels separately.


Seph assures me Nyaveev is pronounce Nigh-neave, and Ta'avren is Ta-verin. I am sooooo pleased that it's Morgeese for you!!! Seph says "Mor-gas", which sounds quite rude.


So, which chapter now? And are you liking New Person's chapters yet? I always looked forward to them, but I can't remember when I reached that point. They were just so fuuuun! Dovie'andi se tovya sagain, as he would say (It's time to roll the dice).

 

[HoopyFrood]

I'm about forty pages from the end, if that, but I want to go swimming in a bit, so I've had to put it down for now.

But yes, new person is very fun and his particular ability isn't as irritating as it should be, mostly because he makes it fun. It wad either the end of his last chapter, or the one before, where I really was grinning at the end of it.

 

[Erin99]

Wohoooo!!! He seems to be a lot of people's favourite. Personally, he was my fav for a long time... and then I really got to know other characters better and so have several favs. I love Rand in these later books, too. He's just SO awesomely interesting, with lots to think about and puzzle!


Well, I'll soon see whether you like the book/series enough to buy the next book. *bites fingernails*

 

[HoopyFrood]

Welllllll...I expected more. I think I remember more and felt more involved in parts in the second book.

I'm starting to think that it would be in their best interests to stick together, seeing as they're all going to make their way to the same place at the climax, anyway. And it did feel like the same pattern. Everyone ends up in the same place through various methods, Rand finds some mysterical item that helps him, he fights Bill (only NOW we find it's not Bill. I guess the doubts that the shifty dude in second book prologue were right), thinks he's won, Moiraine rucks up and is all "hah! You think it's over? It's only going to get woooorsssee!" And then everyone is all, yay, Dragon Reborn! And off we go to start it again in the next book.

Saying thus, I just bought the next book, the one you, Leish, sent along.

 

[Erin99]

Ooh! Okay, so you have some similar ideas to me. I remember thinking I preferred the ending of book two (I somehow had missed the big twist at the end of this book ). When Seph explained what I'd missed - that Flame Face was actually a Forsaken, the first one out, who was mad from being half tossed out of the seal every 40 or so years - I suddenly was like, "Whoa! What?" And I sensed the bigger threat, realising that everything I'd expected the Bad One to be was wrong. I had the idea that the baddie was going to be much, much worse. Yet, somehow, I didn't feel as much as I had at the end of book 2...

However, there were things I enjoyed at the end. Mat's entrance into the stone was fun. Bel'al's panic at seeing Rand actually grab Callandor and become powerful. I also liked the way the last 2 books had the build-up to them all meeting in the same place - it created a sense of anticipation, for me. I hoped you'd like that, cos I remember you once saying you hated books where characters separate...? I think that's the last of that now, anyway...

Well, on the plus side, the next book is the longest yet and it's non-stop action now the Dragon Reborn has finally been declared - and I get the feeling it will be the decider book for you. I can safely say that the "OMG moments" that book 2 missed are there in full force - with some surprising ones that left me so shocked I had to put the book down to let the impact hit me.

(Oh, I had to pause to rest, and now I have to rush to finish this post before I switch off my PC!)


So you find out more about how "mystical items" such as Callandor were made, and why they're not actually mystical. Remember the giant statue being dug up in book 2? That was an sa'angreal, the most powerful one around, something that amplified a user's Power, which is what Callandor does (the sword is the 3rd most powerful one... which begs the question what the 2nd most powerful one is).

Better go rest for the night. If I think of anything more, I'll write it tomorrow.


But... yippeee!!! You will try the next book!!! That's most people's fav.

 

[HoopyFrood]

Yes, I got that he was actually the first Forsaken -- ol' Ishamel. I'm hoping now that Bill the Greater will be completely different -- less melodramatic flame face, more uber force.

Yep, I remember the statue, and that there's a female counterpart and that both together are enough to break the World. That'll be interesting if a pair from either side get their hands on that.

I do prefer that the characters stay together, but considering how they keep ending up in the same place, you'd think they'd realise it's just best to generally stay together

I think it just felt like a lot was being set up with all the Black Ajah and the terrifying treat thereof and then the climax felt very quick. I'm still yet to actually be overly worried by any of the dark side, not since the first meeting of them, and even though I don't want any of them to die part of me wants one to so I can actually feel some kind of peril. Part of me thought Moiraine was on the way out, with all her talks with Lan. I think it's all too big -- Legends and breakings of worlds and a bad guy who's been around since the Creator first set up shop and a battle that repeats itself endlessly. I know this time around it's supposed to be for reals, but I'm not yet feeling it.

I think I'm in the mood other people seem to feel about Doctor Who -- complaining a lot because you can see the potential there, you just haven't quite seen it reach the heights you expect yet so you keep going with a heart full of hope.

 

[Erin99]

Ah! Ishamael, that was his name, not Be'lal! Yes. And the baddie has not disappointed me yet, Hoopy. He's only been in once for you, but he works for me.

As regards the Black Ajah, though, Jordan's only just started bringing in their threat. It's a 14-book series, so he has to keep it going. An interesting point you made about the lack of peril, though - that's fair. The big bad is sealed away, so all conflict has to come from players "in the field", which right now are really only the Black Ajah, until he develops more. You should be getting hints of that now, though, with 4 Forsaken now dead, Rand taking the Stone of Tear and being a channeller in a place that hates the Power, and some strange characters popping up in places that exert influence...

And in this next book things really divide and heat up.


Oh, and I got the same hints as you about Moraine, too. She kept hinting about her life, that the Warder bond would pass onto a Green should she die... I started expecting her to die after that!

Anyway, like I say, the characters don't really meet-up as you're used to from now on, so that repetitiveness should be gone for you (I hope!). I'm very eager to see how you feel about the next book. Like book 2 was so different to book 1, this book is soooo different to all that gone before it. And there's no Prologue, unlike the rest.

Also - keep an eye out for prophecies and foreshadowing. There's loads in there, and lots to puzzle out! And there's some great places, old and new...

I think I'm in the mood other people seem to feel about Doctor Who -- complaining a lot because you can see the potential there, you just haven't quite seen it reach the heights you expect yet so you keep going with a heart full of hope.

As a reader on book 9, the first book that starts Jordan's famous slow-plot threads, I can say that you needn't worry about things not living up to your expectations. You've been spot-on with some of your predictions, nearly there with others, and yet there's so many awesome things you won't even expect! The highlights are beyond your expectations (the ending to book 6, the start of the Prologue to book 6, several things in your next book, the ending to the book I'm on - if I'm correct, etc).

There are funny moments, sad moments, shocking moments, amazing moments, awing moments (and yes, to be fair, some annoying moments, too, but I think you've seen some before and are forgiving, because you see that Jordan always gets past them?). The good always outweighs the bad. Even in my "slow" book I'm seeing that it was just the first load of chapters at the start that weren't as pacy as the rest, not the entire book (unlike the next book, apparently! We'll see.). I'm on some REALLY great chapters now, and finally getting answers to something I've been waiting for since it was prophesised in book 4. And I can't wait for the ending!!! Make a list of any shocking/amazing things you've been expecting since the start of the series; one of them is the ending to my book, apparently, and I think I know what it is, cos Rand's said it a couple of times, and I... just... can't... wait!!!!!!!

 

[HoopyFrood]

OK, I'm on the laptop so I can finally compose a proper post!

Yes, I did laugh slightly when Rand grabbed the sword and Ishamael did a runner! Also I have wondered at points, if the Dark One is so safely enclosed away and was only meant to be able to touch the world now and then, how it was appearing so bodily and seemingly fully everywhere. As I've said, I'd like now for it (see, I've even started calling it it already) to be some great force rather than an actual being. And you say I've met it once already...would that be Capslock, then?

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Moiraine is even being a bit more suicidal in order to give Lan and Ny a chance eventually. I have no doubts who Moiraine meant for him to be passed on to eventually Unless he asked for their bond to be broken, which she's mentioned, but this is Lan, after all. Though if Ny were seriously in danger I could see him doing it.

OK, seeing as all I've done thus far is moan, I'll start talking about the things I do very much like.

Well, of course, Mat. As I've said his ability should be the most annoying, having things go his way most of the time, but it's made so fun and well...unpredictable with him. I don't even mind his cheeky chapiness with it because he's still so farmboyish with it.

There is just something that I really like about Perrin. One of my favourite parts with him in this book was when he went back to Blacksmithing and was back in his element. Also, the bickering between him and Faile (Said as 'Fail', fo sho!) was a little bit annoying, but the very end of their bit, where he saves her from the dream place, and they were all "my blacksmith!" "my falcon!" Very adorable.

Speaking of adorable -- everything Loial does.

Though they can still go on like petulant teenagers, when Ny, Eg and Elayne decide to kick ass as Aes Sedai, they are so awesome. It made me grin when Mat freed them and he was all "what's going oooon?" and they just walked past, patting his face. I also love when they forgo powers completely and just punch people in the face! I gave a little cheer when, in the second book, Ny freed the first damane and the freed woman promptly turned around and smacked the sul'dam in the face I also really liked seeing Eg learn more of how to use the power at the end of book three, weaving the flows together and even snipping them off to be left working by themselves.

Oh, and Hopper! When he leapt up and went soaring into the sky, just like he always wanted to...

 

[Erin99]

Heh, yeah, that Ishamael part was great, he was like, "Oooh heck!!!"

Aaaaand. Your guess might be right. Rand might have been in the Blight in book 1, which might happen to be near Shaol Ghul, the place where the Dark One's - Bill's, Capslock's - influence is strongest.

No comment on the Lan/Ny/Moraine stuff. I had similar thoughts, though I did doubt myself when Moraine kept showing moments of jealousy over Lan's divided loyalty. Remember, though, Moraine - like most Aes Sedai - puts the Dragon Reborn facing the Dark One in the Last Battle above everything else. Would she be reckless with her life just because she wanted Lan to have Ny, or would she stay alive at all costs to protect her tool, Rand? (Poor Rand! Does anyone see him as not a weapon?!)


And you still like Perrin? That's... interesting. *strokes chin* I think you WILL love the next book (I've been thinking it's your decider book, and that you might decide even the amazing moments aren't enough to keep going). The next book is Perrin's book to shine in, since I got mixed up and thought *this* book was it.

I like how you get to see more of each character coming out in each book, because they take turns at being in the spotlight. I have to say, though, Faile (yes! "Fail" for you, too, not "Faa-eel"!) is someone I had an on-off relationship with. She's a nutter, and sometimes not in the good way, but I'm just learning that that's what all women who come from her land are like. Aaaand... at one point I shocked myself by really starting to feel for her.

The Perrin blacksmithing scene is A LOT of people's fav, btw. I like that it shows how far he's come and yet he'll always be a blacksmith at heart, yearning for the simple things.

Oh, and LOIAL IS THE CUTEST FURRY, TUFTY-EARED THING GOING!!!

Agree about Ny, Eg, and Elayne behaving like teenagers (well, they are to be fair, yet still - they're main characters!!!). One grows up a lot over the next few books. I LOVE it when they punch people, as well! I've always loved characters who aren't afraid to use their fists!!!


Well, the hopeful side of me has found you the next book after the next book, but I won't pass on the link yet in case you don't want to read further. We'll see in a week or so! I will not bug you. (But you should know it's £2.99 in total. )

 

[HoopyFrood]

Well Perrin hasn't done anything major to annoy me, so yes, I still like him. More seriously, he describes himself as someone who takes the time to sit and think about stuff and he's always careful about not hurting other people and I think that's what I like about him the most. He is such a careful, conscious fellow and in between all these people who have mad abilities and can throw lightning and balefire and all the rest, I like that he's there, little Perrin, just trying to save people and killing when he has to (and how he's never really ever accepted the axe, unlike the others who took to weapons quickly). Plus I still want to see what more his wolfiness can do and what his ta'veren is all about.

Heh, you're a fiend

 

[Erin99]

I like how you sum him up. You might've changed my mind about him. I always felt he was too plodding and careful instead of firing off and being all killy-killy like the others. But you describe him as being gentle and thoughtful, which appeals to me... and he is considerate and conscious.. and loving...

Oh, hurry up and arrive, book 4!

Heh, and I'm not denying I'm a fiend!*







*I'm not a DARKfiend, though.

 

[HoopyFrood]

Woooo, next book heeeeree.

Though also the same day some work arrived, so my speed reading will be taken down a notch.

But woooooo.

 

[Erin99]

Yay! Hoopy, that's fantastic!!! Good timing - in more ways than one. I'm having to work on the dude's website today, so I don't have time spare either. But I'm VERY keen to read your thoughts as and when you can post them. I'll reply as and when I can, too (and I'll certainly be lurking to read them!).

Good luck with your work. I hope it's the start of loads for you!

 

[HoopyFrood]

So been meaning to mention, the more I think on it, the more I rather like the ending to book 3. I think it could've been written a bit more...dramatically? Empathetic? Instead of "Hey, I think maybe that guy we thought was Bill wasn't Bill at all, just a forsaken." You know, more, well if this is a mere Forsaken, then WHAT THE HELL is Bill? Which is the idea that is starting to sink in now. This rather typical, sneering, flamey guy who kept popping up at the climax to try and kill off Rand every time and who was starting to get...not predictable, just regular, as it were, isn't what we thought. Now that's all been flipped on its head and we don't know what to expect from the Big Bad.

Except he speaks in CAPLOCKS.

 

[Erin99]

I agree with you 100%! At first I was disappointed, cos I thought the ending could have had more KAPOW(!) or something, since everyone turned up and it got all exciting. More drama, more character realisations to what this meant, that would have helped. And then there's the little fact that I missed the big reveal completely (I did it again with the ending to book five, heh, and that had a key scene I missed). Seph was like, "So, what do you think?", and I was like, "Yeah, it was okaaaay. I just don't get how the Dark One is gonna keep popping back after Rand injures or "kills" him." And Seph patiently explained what I'd missed. Then I was like !

I so hope you get to read the start of book six. That, along with the ending of said book, is one of people's key highlights of the series, along with other scenes in other books... and lots of parts in your current book. By the sounds of it, it would have the same effect on you as it did me. And that's all I'll say.


And if you decide not to read the rest of the books, I'll just have to tell you what you'll miss so at least you know what awesome things happened.

 

[Jonathan C]

Okay, I really must ask this.

Why do you call The Dark One "Bill"?

 

[HoopyFrood]

LOL!

I didn't realise how weird that would seem to other people

Bill comes from an old thread, before Leish read the books and heard the Dark One referred to as that and thought it a little clichéd and so offered the name Bill.

I was going through said thread a few weeks ago and decided to reuse Bill

 

[Erin99]

Heh! Blimey, I'd forgotten too! Must look weird! Yes, when I first heard about WoT years ago, and that the Dark One was the uber baddie, I was like, "But it's soooo clichéd!", and so I called him Bill instead, which stands out much more, don't you think?


Hoopy, you've read Ch 15!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YEAH!!! I LOVED that doorway scene! And when all 3 came out of it, I laughed. Interesting prophecies, too...

 

[Jonathan C]

LOL!

I didn't realise how weird that would seem to other people

Bill comes from an old thread, before Leish read the books and heard the Dark One referred to as that and thought it a little clichéd and so offered the name Bill.

I was going through said thread a few weeks ago and decided to reuse Bill

Heh! Blimey, I'd forgotten too! Must look weird! Yes, when I first heard about WoT years ago, and that the Dark One was the uber baddie, I was like, "But it's soooo clichéd!", and so I called him Bill instead, which stands out much more, don't you think?

The Dark One. The anti-Creator. The ultimate evil, intent on the enslavement of reality or its total destruction.

It has many names. Father of Lies, Sightblinder, The Shadow, Leafblighter, Lord of the Grave, Grassburner, Great Lord of the Dark, Shai'tan.

And now, Bill.

Its different, I'll give you that.

 

[ratsy]

Hahahah you guys are hilarious! I love it...if only I could re-read the final chapters of the series thinking of "Bill" .... glad i read this after...haha