But where would, say, a neolithic hunter hundreds of miles from the sea have got it?
Why was salt so expensive?
- Thread starter JoanDrake
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But where would, say, a neolithic hunter hundreds of miles from the sea have got it?
Oh, dear, no, not salt pans: the mines are underground. Not sure what way they do it, only that my house might potentially disappear into one one day -- there's a large mine cast that collapsed about a quarter of a mile away a decade ago which flooded the mines and unfortunately no one seems very exact about where they go. Hmmmm. 
I could have sword I'd read a mediaeval price list recently which listed salt. It's purchase seemed quite ordinary in the UK. It was the spices that really cost - presumably because of the long distance it had to be traded - but even then, many spices were available to buy in town markets.
It's worth noting that, by comparison to modern day industry farming, manufacturing, and transportation, pretty much everything consumable is relativelycheaper these days.
It's worth noting that, by comparison to modern day industry farming, manufacturing, and transportation, pretty much everything consumable is relativelycheaper these days.
neolithic tribes had to travel to different sources of briney water in the americas and then spend a lot of time processing the salt out. inland sources were rare and fought over.
salt was necessary for health and meat preservation. having salted meats could allow the tribe to survive the dead time in the winter when there was nothing growing and animals were hibernating.
we never really think about it but they needed five months supply of food for everyone at the beginning of the winter. growing and gathering as much as you could without stripping resources was essential. with a two month growing season that would coincide with the sunlight and warmth necessary for salt production. so they were forced to choose between growing their food and preserving it. and the technology was primative and labour intensive. hollowed out logs for brine pools heated by throwing coals into the brine. the hunters would have to provide game to support the. group soafter the logs were hollowed, the women did the labour intensive job. often the women were abducted from local tribes to serve as workers.
the whole operation would take four to six weeks. a very good chunk of the growing season.
and as for neolithic sodium pills, the salts from blood was concentrated and mixed into a dried grain for a blood sausage type deal. this was used as atrail food.
salt was necessary for health and meat preservation. having salted meats could allow the tribe to survive the dead time in the winter when there was nothing growing and animals were hibernating.
we never really think about it but they needed five months supply of food for everyone at the beginning of the winter. growing and gathering as much as you could without stripping resources was essential. with a two month growing season that would coincide with the sunlight and warmth necessary for salt production. so they were forced to choose between growing their food and preserving it. and the technology was primative and labour intensive. hollowed out logs for brine pools heated by throwing coals into the brine. the hunters would have to provide game to support the. group soafter the logs were hollowed, the women did the labour intensive job. often the women were abducted from local tribes to serve as workers.
the whole operation would take four to six weeks. a very good chunk of the growing season.
and as for neolithic sodium pills, the salts from blood was concentrated and mixed into a dried grain for a blood sausage type deal. this was used as atrail food.
Sometimes I just get caught up in research. I trotted over to the library (I'm lucky enough to work at a university) and hauled out Bridbury (A.R., "Medieval Salt Trade" or some such title). Mostly he talks about trade, but there are a few prices scattered around.
First, distinguish between two types of salt: white salt and Bay salt (or gray salt). The former was roughly twice as expensive as the latter, and this ratio held true over time. Here are some numbers.
1340 3s 3d per quarter for white, 2s for Bay
1355 8s 2d for white, 4s 10d for Bay
1428 3s for white, 2s for Bay
How much is a quarter? It's eight bushels. While exact measures aren't a characteristic of the Middle Ages, I figure a quarter is maybe 200 pounds of salt.
Medieval foodstuff prices were frighteningly volatile. Thus, during the Great Famine:
1314 5s
1315 13s 6d
1316 11s 2d
1317 5s 7d
(all for white salt)
For some perspective on this, a worker's daily wages -- a salt-boiler, as a matter of fact -- was 15d in 1345 and jumped up to 2s in 1349.
In other words, salt was in no sense expensive.
BTW, Bay salt may have been used by the poor (I know it was in France), but its chief use was in the preservation of food rather than for consumption. That's why the Hanseatic League sent its huge salt fleets every year--they had to salt down all that herring! Even in England, Bridbury says (p.140) salt's chief use was for fish.
I hope that helps.
I liked a description in Bridbury, quoting another author from the 1700s, that talks about salt pans in southern England. The sea water was left in the sun (hah!) for a time, but once it reached a certain point, the pans were drained (had pipes built in) into a boiling house, where the process of evaporation was completed using fires. I can't imagine that was a very pleasant place in which to work!
First, distinguish between two types of salt: white salt and Bay salt (or gray salt). The former was roughly twice as expensive as the latter, and this ratio held true over time. Here are some numbers.
1340 3s 3d per quarter for white, 2s for Bay
1355 8s 2d for white, 4s 10d for Bay
1428 3s for white, 2s for Bay
How much is a quarter? It's eight bushels. While exact measures aren't a characteristic of the Middle Ages, I figure a quarter is maybe 200 pounds of salt.
Medieval foodstuff prices were frighteningly volatile. Thus, during the Great Famine:
1314 5s
1315 13s 6d
1316 11s 2d
1317 5s 7d
(all for white salt)
For some perspective on this, a worker's daily wages -- a salt-boiler, as a matter of fact -- was 15d in 1345 and jumped up to 2s in 1349.
In other words, salt was in no sense expensive.
BTW, Bay salt may have been used by the poor (I know it was in France), but its chief use was in the preservation of food rather than for consumption. That's why the Hanseatic League sent its huge salt fleets every year--they had to salt down all that herring! Even in England, Bridbury says (p.140) salt's chief use was for fish.
I hope that helps.
I liked a description in Bridbury, quoting another author from the 1700s, that talks about salt pans in southern England. The sea water was left in the sun (hah!) for a time, but once it reached a certain point, the pans were drained (had pipes built in) into a boiling house, where the process of evaporation was completed using fires. I can't imagine that was a very pleasant place in which to work!
I have shifted a bit, after a wee bit of internet research, although I was partially there the first time:
From the website below on "The Consumption of Spices and Their Costs in Late-Medieval and Early-Modern Europe: Luxuries or Necessities?", l think I understand why salt is deemed to be 'valuable'.
"...(salt) was the almost universal preservative for meat, fish, butter, etc...; and salt, for bodily requirements as well, was a necessity, which is why so many hard-hearted princes taxed salt so heavily"
(I've tidied it up and the boldfont is mine)
It's not that as a commodity it was expensive to the everyday user (the paper puts a pint of it at only half a penny in 1438 in London), but to the prince, king, pope or general ruler of the medieval world, controlling a monopoly on it would generate a huge load of cash. Hence it's monetary value. (and why all these peeps had very fancy bling holding their salt - it says "our salt generates so much wealth, we're storing the bog standard dinner seasoning in kilograms of gold")
Here's the paper, it's quite interesting on the whole spice discussion!
http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/SPICES1.htm
Can't tell you if the paper is kosher though, not my field of study. But does have some medieval spice recipes as well.
I found another paper (you have to down load it as a pdf - it seems to be fine, I've not had a problem with it):
www.ekhistmotet09.ekhist.uu.se/filedownload.php?id=106
That has a discussion on Swedish salt prices goes back to 1200 and why it was more expensive in the mid-fifteenth century (on page 15), although unfortunately it only has the prices in relative movements, not absolute. But also has a number of interesting price developments on other commodities.
From the website below on "The Consumption of Spices and Their Costs in Late-Medieval and Early-Modern Europe: Luxuries or Necessities?", l think I understand why salt is deemed to be 'valuable'.
"...(salt) was the almost universal preservative for meat, fish, butter, etc...; and salt, for bodily requirements as well, was a necessity, which is why so many hard-hearted princes taxed salt so heavily"
(I've tidied it up and the boldfont is mine)
It's not that as a commodity it was expensive to the everyday user (the paper puts a pint of it at only half a penny in 1438 in London), but to the prince, king, pope or general ruler of the medieval world, controlling a monopoly on it would generate a huge load of cash. Hence it's monetary value. (and why all these peeps had very fancy bling holding their salt - it says "our salt generates so much wealth, we're storing the bog standard dinner seasoning in kilograms of gold"
)Here's the paper, it's quite interesting on the whole spice discussion!
http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/SPICES1.htm
Can't tell you if the paper is kosher though, not my field of study. But does have some medieval spice recipes as well.
I found another paper (you have to down load it as a pdf - it seems to be fine, I've not had a problem with it):
www.ekhistmotet09.ekhist.uu.se/filedownload.php?id=106
That has a discussion on Swedish salt prices goes back to 1200 and why it was more expensive in the mid-fifteenth century (on page 15), although unfortunately it only has the prices in relative movements, not absolute. But also has a number of interesting price developments on other commodities.
Glisterspeck
Frozen sea axe smith
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Brian, "d" is nowhere near "n" on the keyboard. I think you might need to take a break from this epic fantasy stuff.
Jastius, thanks for all that info; I'd never really thought about it.
I could have sword is just dying for the I can haz cheezburger treatment.
that one is from university of toronto (where margaret atwood was writer in residence) .
Uof T is one of the big three for research at a world class level around here, along with McGill and MacMasters Universities.. You can pretty much trust anything that comes out of there.
brian you could always do what i do and blame all unintended keydrops upon my cat.. (she really does like to press the buttons of the keypad, she thinks its a game..)
and Glisterspeck, my cat wants to know why don't you like cheeseburgers?
Sodium does appear naturally in foods like beets, celery, and lemons. So people could get some, enough to stagger along and live short, unhealthy lives, without taking "sodium pills."
I agree with those who say that the price of salt depends on where and when, and a combination of availability/demand in any given area. Then there would be cost of transport over long distances, ease of transport (those nice Roman roads would help), etc.
You can't look at the price of any commodity in one particular time and place and culture, and apply it across the board.
Gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
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I think it's a mistake to think of salt as "expensive" - as others have said the notable thing about salt wasn't its cost but its importance. Everyone needed it. Not everyone had it. That meant if you controlled the salt trade you could make a butt-load of money.
In the Roman Empire salt was heavily controlled by the government as an essential resource. They altered the price frequently - raising it to fund wars and lowering it to ensure even the poorest citizens could afford it.
In the Roman Empire salt was heavily controlled by the government as an essential resource. They altered the price frequently - raising it to fund wars and lowering it to ensure even the poorest citizens could afford it.
>http://www.economics.utoronto.ca/munro5/SPICES1.htm
>
>Can't tell you if the paper is kosher though, not my field of study.
John Munro is solid. Plus, he's web savvy and has put up a number of interesting works. He specifically teaches the economy of the LMA.
>
>Can't tell you if the paper is kosher though, not my field of study.
John Munro is solid. Plus, he's web savvy and has put up a number of interesting works. He specifically teaches the economy of the LMA.
Do you have a specific example of the Empire raising salt prices in order to finance wars?
Gumboot
lorcutus.tolere
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The Punic Wars was one example. It happened frequently.
Glisterspeck
Frozen sea axe smith
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I'll just say, after spending a good part of my evening reading through the links here and exploring the rabbit holes they opened, that this is exactly the sort of thread that drew me to this forum in the first place. Not that I don't enjoy the other sorts as well, but this kind of knowledge sharing is gold. And fortunately, nothing I read upset the salt based resource conflict that underpins my WIP. Whew. (Course, being that goblins, basically, control the salt in my world, I think I probably could have worked around any issues using the "a wizard did it" trope.)
Having an enemy race control a resource is a great idea, Glisterspeck. I plan to steal and modify!
@Gumboot: could I get a reference? Your example is from the Republic, not the Empire. AFAIK, the Republic never set prices on anything. The closest they came was state purchases of grain, which had a powerful but indirect effect on wheat pricing. I'm a medievalist by training, though, so I don't pretend to any depth of knowledge for the ancient world. I ask for sources so I can pursue the question on my own.
@Gumboot: could I get a reference? Your example is from the Republic, not the Empire. AFAIK, the Republic never set prices on anything. The closest they came was state purchases of grain, which had a powerful but indirect effect on wheat pricing. I'm a medievalist by training, though, so I don't pretend to any depth of knowledge for the ancient world. I ask for sources so I can pursue the question on my own.
Couple of random additions
1. Salt price (ignoring taxes) might vary with climate - as in Italy presumably had a lot more sun so needed less fuel for salt production.
2. Place names with "Salterton" in them - especially coastal ones. Guess what used to be done there.
1. Salt price (ignoring taxes) might vary with climate - as in Italy presumably had a lot more sun so needed less fuel for salt production.
2. Place names with "Salterton" in them - especially coastal ones. Guess what used to be done there.
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