The Hero's Journey and Mythic Structure

[Boneman]

I read The Writer's Journey years ago when I was trying to make it as a screenwriter, and I'm damned if I can remember any of it today. Okay, that says as much about my memory as it does about his writing, but... when I looked at my current wip, damn me if I've not actually followed the first ten points of his summary, almost exactly!! I had to browse his book to find them again, but I take it to mean that Vogler is just telling us (sort of) universal truths in storytelling. Writing to formula knowingly can work for some and not for others. Writing (as I've done) and then finding it's to formula is much more interesting - is it a validation of what I've written? Who knows?

 

[alex_riveiro]

Being an Spanish native speaker, I'm not familiar with this Hero's Journey and Mythic structure, but by the looks of it, it doesn't have much to do with how my first book went (and certainly neither with the second). I guess it's good to follow it if you don't know where to start, but I honestly feel that sticking to a formula, as Boneman said, will work for some, but not for others.

Also, if you're sticking to a formula, I believe you're just becoming another person doing what someone else has done, and may not necessarily do it as well as said person did.

 

[ZombieWife]

It's no more formulaic (in my mind) than saying, "Well, you need a beginning, middle and ending here."

 

[alex_riveiro]

I see, it's not like a "Holy Grail" that everyone should follow when writing that kind of story, right? I mean, that's not how English writers perceive it?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I see, it's not like a "Holy Grail" that everyone should follow when writing that kind of story, right? I mean, that's not how English writers perceive it?

I'd like to hope not. In fact, just to stir things up -- is it one of the reasons fantasy can seem a little generic? Is this structure followed quite a lot, one way or another, especially in fantasy? The whole mentor thing and what not is quite a big feature of a lot of fantasy books, as is the quest reject - accept -fail-redeem-succeed sort of journey. I'm not saying every step must be there, but is there a tendency to this pattern?

I think there is a real danger with this sort of thing of thinking that it's what makes a story, or that in having one element missing we jeopardise a structure. I'm looked at mentor and chewed my lip, wondering if I'm missing a trick. (But I hate Karate Kid type set ups.) But what if my hero's development is less believable without one... and came to the conclusion that nah, I don't want one. They'd unbalance everything, and take away the isolation factor that I wanted. But, if I'd read this first.... would a character have been slipped into that role? Maybe.

 

[Brian G Turner]

It's no more formulaic (in my mind) than saying, "Well, you need a beginning, middle and ending here."

Exactly - it's about elements of a story, but not about formula: it's about understanding what you've used and why, and how you can explore it better.

It's interesting because screenwriting books I've read reference the heroes journey regardless of genre - action, romance, comedy - but that there are additional elements typical of detective/thrillers.

Ultimately, it's about understanding storytelling better - as I've said before, consciously understanding what you've written rather than leaving it as an unconscious process.

 

[ZombieWife]

Exactly - it's about elements of a story, but not about formula: it's about understanding what you've used and why, and how you can explore it better.

It's interesting because screenwriting books I've read reference the heroes journey regardless of genre - action, romance, comedy - but that there are additional elements typical of detective/thrillers.

Ultimately, it's about understanding storytelling better - as I've said before, consciously understanding what you've down rather than leaving it as an unconscious process.

Studying the film structure helped me immensely in terms of learning plot. "Save the Cat," is a great book. Have you read that one, I, Brian? And, what film books might you suggest?

 

[JoanDrake]

Can anyone explain to me how "The Golden Bough" by George Frazer is related to Campbell's work? Wiki seems to be telling me it's a sort of alternate monomyth to Campbell's, whereas I always thought it was just a sort of Comparative Religion Reference using its story as an organizing device.

Which may be what Campbell's work is. This sort of obviates the objection that Campbell is trying to say that there's only ONE sort of story, told over and over in different ways. It's more like putting Xerox under X rather than Z in the dictionary

Good bunch of books to look into mentioned in this thread and I echo ZombieWife's request, does anyone know of any more on how to use myth in writing?

 

[Brian G Turner]

Studying the film structure helped me immensely in terms of learning plot. "Save the Cat," is a great book. Have you read that one, I, Brian? And, what film books might you suggest?

Indeed, I love that book - especially for the section on character motivation - helped immensely in trying to dig into deeper character experience (though it's still a toughie).

Another I read recently was Million Dollar Outlines by David Farland, which covers a lot of the same ground, but it's more novel-writing orientated - and as he's written a fantasy series he covers the genre to some degree. Another short succinct book.

I used to think story structure was all formulaic baloney. Now I find it an essential reference.

I've started a second WIP, but it's developing very organically - I get visions of scenes and write them when I do - but once I get the first draft finished I'll start apply issues such as character development, and looking at heroic myth structure to see what tweaks I can make to improve upon it.

I've only read a few, but I find the screenwriting-based books so far to be more valuable.

Am currently reading Violence, A Writer's Guide by Sgt Rory Miller to ensure I have a properly realistic approach to fighting. His descriptions of the effects of adrenaline in his Meditations on Violence I found invaluable.

 

[ZombieWife]

Indeed, I love that book - especially for the section on character motivation - helped immensely in trying to dig into deeper character experience (though it's still a toughie).

Another I read recently was Million Dollar Outlines by David Farland, which covers a lot of the same ground, but it's more novel-writing orientated - and as he's written a fantasy series he covers the genre to some degree. Another short succinct book.

I used to think story structure was all formulaic baloney. Now I find it an essential reference.

I've started a second WIP, but it's developing very organically - I get visions of scenes and write them when I do - but once I get the first draft finished I'll start apply issues such as character development, and looking at heroic myth structure to see what tweaks I can make to improve upon it.

I've only read a few, but I find the screenwriting-based books so far to be more valuable.

Am currently reading Violence, A Writer's Guide by Sgt Rory Miller to ensure I have a properly realistic approach to fighting. His descriptions of the effects of adrenaline in his Meditations on Violence I found invaluable.

Awesome! Thanks for the recommendation. I'm with you. I used to think it was all hokey (plotting and structure), but it is a wonderful reference. I do find that in the first draft, I tend to hit many milestones, but the framework of plotting (especially the film version) helps me take inventory after that first draft and alter where it would best help the story.

 

[HareBrain]

Can anyone explain to me how "The Golden Bough" by George Frazer is related to Campbell's work?

Well, they're both looking for common threads in ancient beliefs and myths (for Campbell, the initiatory quest-myth, for Frazer, the concept of the sacrifical king), but that's about it. Robert Graves's The White Goddess, which owed quite a lot to Frazer (I believe) does something similar.

Campbell must have read Frazer, I would have thought (I can't remember if he mentions him), so there was quite possibly an influence.

 

[Dozmonic]

I really enjoyed Vogler's book. One of the problems I had with the mythic structure is that you've got a very detailed set of milestones for your first act, up until the hero goes on his journey. Then the second act, half the book, is pushed under the title of "tests, allies and enemies", leading up to the final encounter. That's a massive and significant section of the book with hardly any guidance at all. Then the third act was replete with information and steps once more.