Ramblings about weapons and armour

Another reason general European armies didn't like the Brits was because they tried to KILL their enemies, instead of taking them prisoner and holding them for ransom. I'm unclear as to why they didn't follow this custom but I've read it was a major factor in how Crecy and Agincourt were fought, along with their outcomes

The reason generally given that the English (You can tell I'm a scot eh! :)) were unchivalrous, at least at the battle of Agincourt, was that they had so many prisoners and still had a force larger than their own to defeat (or so it seemed, in reality the last line of the French were melting away, but Henry didn't know it at the time), so the fear was that the prisoners would pick up weapons and rejoin the fight - from the rear - and easily overwhelm Henry's tired forces. Hence the order to kill.

The point was in these big battles, the English had their backs to the wall and had to do what was necessary to win, not play by courtly rules. The other thing to remember is that the shock was just as profoundly received by the English side, but stemming from the soliders avarice - these captives were a potential lucrative ransom.

However, to be fair to the English, generally outside such one-off battles French aristocrats surrendering would always be treated by chivalric rules - i.e. when the pressure was off, they became opportunities for enrichment for the captors.
 
I saw an episode of Ultimate Warrior where they pitched viking against samurai. Interesting watching, the kitana was wholly and completely ineffective against mail, as in.. it was almost laughable how easily it shrugged off the blows.

Im pretty sure that part of the reason why the English army was always looked down on by other european powers, was because they fought dirty, even their knights only loosely followed the chivalric code. English knights usually fought on foot and their weapon of choice was the halberd, not the sword. But even non knighted heavy infantry used billhooks instead of halberds. This was because their superior reach, pointed tips and heavy bladed parts performed pretty much all battlefield roles well - spear/pike, axe and staff and were ideal at picking mounted combatants off their horses and despatching them with ease.

Im pretty sure that polearms were pretty much the weapon of choice for most heavy infantry by the end of the medievil period. The sword had its roles, but usually in lighter infantry positions, more chivalric armies would have their heavy infantry use longsword and shield, because of all the reasons mentioned above.

Also, not all maces were giant weapons that left you off balance if you missed, some maces were actually quite small (look at the one Brian Blesseds character used in the Kenneth Brannagh film of Henry V, it almost looks comically small) certainly no bigger than a long sword and probably lighter as well, as all the weight is concetrated in the top of the weapon, it didnt need to weigh as much to be effective.


Pretty much spot on. The sword was really a secondary weapon, used by infantry once they got into a melee (which often never happened) where their polearms were too cumbersome. As such, the typical battlefield "sword" was something like a falchion, a dagger, or a short sword (or as JoanDrake pointed out, the misericorde).

In the high middle ages there was a resurgence of swords on the battlefield, but these were exceptionally large and long swords, used more like polearms than your classic single-handed sword.

As for differences in how the English fought, it's important to remember that these examples being offered are from the Hundred Years War which is generally accepted as the end of the Middle Ages. The war resulted in significant and far-reaching changes to all aspects of warfare, and probably isn't a good measure of "typical" medieval warfare.

In particular, this conflict saw the end of feudal style warfare and the establishment of the basic elements of modern warfare between nation states, by citizen armies.
 
I saw an episode of Ultimate Warrior where they pitched viking against samurai. Interesting watching, the kitana was wholly and completely ineffective against mail, as in.. it was almost laughable how easily it shrugged off the blows.

Im pretty sure that part of the reason why the English army was always looked down on by other european powers, was because they fought dirty, even their knights only loosely followed the chivalric code. English knights usually fought on foot and their weapon of choice was the halberd, not the sword. But even non knighted heavy infantry used billhooks instead of halberds. This was because their superior reach, pointed tips and heavy bladed parts performed pretty much all battlefield roles well - spear/pike, axe and staff and were ideal at picking mounted combatants off their horses and despatching them with ease.

Im pretty sure that polearms were pretty much the weapon of choice for most heavy infantry by the end of the medievil period. The sword had its roles, but usually in lighter infantry positions, more chivalric armies would have their heavy infantry use longsword and shield, because of all the reasons mentioned above.

Also, not all maces were giant weapons that left you off balance if you missed, some maces were actually quite small (look at the one Brian Blesseds character used in the Kenneth Brannagh film of Henry V, it almost looks comically small) certainly no bigger than a long sword and probably lighter as well, as all the weight is concetrated in the top of the weapon, it didnt need to weigh as much to be effective.

My understanding is that a polearm is not the easiest weapon to use and particularly by itself, though it is very effective against mounted and armored men when used by groups of well trained infantry. This may be the reason it didn't come into favor until the later Medieval period as you say, when men formed roving bands of such infantry for sale to the richest warring Lord.

I'll agree about the lighter axe and mace, though my choice if offered one, (and assuming an Abrams tank is right out) would be something bigger rather than smaller.
 
Of course the best weapon (which is often not seen in fantasy novels) is artillery, which is the biggest killer in major (and many minor) conflicts.

As I'm writing this from the TOC of a Field Artillery Brigade in a forward deployed location... I absolutely agree with this well thought out and highly accurate post by someone who is obviously both amazingly intelligent and probably good looking.

Artillery is the King of Battle.

No, really, that's what they call us.

As for our non-gunpowder fantasy and early medieval world military questions, we should probably remember throughout that the spear (or variant polearms) was the dominant weapon of war throughout the entire pre-gunpowder history of man. (this includes the Japanese)

A spear is a far better weapon on a battlefield than a sword or a mace. For some perspective on just how hard it is to fight a man with a spear you can go on youtube and check out some of the videos HEMA guys trying to figure out a way to do it.

Our armored knights that we keep talking about using swords and maces... we seem to have skipped the whole detail about them carrying spears/lances. Those were the primary weapon, and the smaller melee weapons came out as backups.

Those smaller weapons, and swords in particular, were also useful when you were in towns or going about your daily business. If you were a noble, you probably wouldn't carry a spear when you were walking to a pub in town, but you might carry a sword which would come in useful in keeping people from just robbing and murdering you on the streets.

On the subject of arrows, there were arrows that could pierce metal armor if you were lucky (normally mail on our historic knights), but they aren't your standard "Legolas" arrows. The Bodkin arrowheads for instance were upwards of 5 inches long and were on arrows with shafts hovering around the 30 inch length. These are freaking huge arrows, and not particularly accurate. Broadhead arrows on the other hand are much more accurate, but lack the ability to pierce armor. I see people writing about how broadheads would have been good against unarmored personnel, but I've also hunted with broadheads personally and I would question their ability to "kill" the enemy. When you shoot a deer with a broadhead, the deer runs away. He will eventually lose enough blood that he will lay down and take a little nap... and that's how you find your deer. Just think about that imagery the next time you see legolas shooting orcs and they fall like they just took a .50 cal round to the head.

What I've read of Agincourt mentions a lot of French knights getting stuck in the mud after their horses are shot out from under them, and then getting trampled. The takeaway being that the arrows didn't kill the armored men, but that they were weighted down by armor and drowned in the mud.

Kind of wandering here... why did I start this post?

Oh, yeah: Artillery is the King of Battle! Spears, swords, maces, and bows... meh. I can put a 300lbs of shrapnel-laden goodness in a 6 meter circle up to 300km away.
 
So far as I understand it, spears are the superior weapon: they are simple and cheap to produce and take little training to wield.

The problem is having a group of soldiers trained enough to use them in a coherent and disciplined manner.

Once they did, they were formidable - as the Swiss Pikemen showed.

As with the English Longbowmen, you had an armed force that had undergone training for a long period before any actual campaign.

Of course, the upper class hated all this - commoners being able to get one on those of noble birth?

That's why the French were so riled at Agincourt - they would have happily slaughtered Henry V's army and ransomed the king and any nobles, had they won. As they showed by killing the squires at the baggage train.

That's also why the crossbow was also frowned upon.

Anything that could allow commoners to best the nobility was not simply a military threat but also a social threat.

As for maces - you've got to remember that if they were too weighted at the ends then they would be unwieldy. That's why even large axes were extremely thin. Warhammers were also small for the same reason. It's fantasy that has exaggerated the size of many weapons simply to make the wielders look more brutish, rather than skilled.

2c.
 
The spear can be a great weapon, but it's unwieldy, easily outflanked and useless in close-quarters combat. It was more of a deterrent; a wall of spears and shields advancing could quite easily see the enemy rout, but an organised, disciplined, and especially mobile force could pick them off at their leisure. Once the formation is broken they've pretty much had it.

A far more formidable foe was the lancer; mounted spearmen. A wall of spears charging at you at a rate of knots would see even the bravest turn and flee, and the only defence was either a swift counter-attack by your own cavalry or quickly forming square. (Again , here comes the artillery which loves to see a group of men huddled together in formation).

For every weapon there is a counter-weapon; for every tactic a defence.
 
Here's a couple videos of guys working spears vs swords 1 on 1.

Spear vs Sword and Buckler Nick vs Mike Sparring - YouTube

Spear vs Sword and Shield, Nick vs Jake Sparring - YouTube

A couple things to note in these videos:
1) The spear is awful short, and it's still just about impossible to get at the guy.

2) In the second video with the much larger shield, the swordbearer does better, but tends to just ignore the fact that the other guy is stabbing him repeatedly with the rubber spear point as he barrels in to "score". I think this may show the same bias that most of us probably have in that we generally want the swords to win (also, these guys all primarily fence with swords).
 
As for our non-gunpowder fantasy and early medieval world military questions, we should probably remember throughout that the spear (or variant polearms) was the dominant weapon of war throughout the entire pre-gunpowder history of man. (this includes the Japanese)

Not amongst the Romans it wasn't.



A spear is a far better weapon on a battlefield than a sword or a mace. For some perspective on just how hard it is to fight a man with a spear you can go on youtube and check out some of the videos HEMA guys trying to figure out a way to do it.

Our armored knights that we keep talking about using swords and maces... we seem to have skipped the whole detail about them carrying spears/lances. Those were the primary weapon, and the smaller melee weapons came out as backups.

The lance was a single-use shock weapon that would be discarded after the initial charge, and often wasn't used at all. The knight's main weapon was actually psychological. Most heavy cavalry charges broke the enemy without ever making contact.


Those smaller weapons, and swords in particular, were also useful when you were in towns or going about your daily business. If you were a noble, you probably wouldn't carry a spear when you were walking to a pub in town, but you might carry a sword which would come in useful in keeping people from just robbing and murdering you on the streets.

This is unlikely. See my earlier post about the sword. Unless you got a special dispensation (and it was exceedingly rare) you weren't permitted to carry arms in a city or town. The normal day-to-day utility tool-and-weapon was the dagger.



On the subject of arrows, there were arrows that could pierce metal armor if you were lucky (normally mail on our historic knights), but they aren't your standard "Legolas" arrows.

This is a bit of a side issue, but the heads on Legolas' arrows in the "Rings" movies are much closer to bodkin heads than broadheads.



The Bodkin arrowheads for instance were upwards of 5 inches long and were on arrows with shafts hovering around the 30 inch length. These are freaking huge arrows, and not particularly accurate.

30" is the average length of an arrow for an English Longbow (called a "yardcloth" for their length, and they were extremely accurate at short range.

It was long believed that bodkin arrowheads were intended to penetrate armour, but there's actually little evidence to support this. None of the recovered bodkin heads are made of hardened steel, and tests have found that the small, hardened broadheads more commonly used by English longbowmen have better penetrating power than even modern hardened bodkin points. The only exception is solid plate (which was exceedingly rare on the battlefield and primarily used on the tournament ground) but even then the broad head deforms the steel more than a hardened bodkin head penetrates it.


Broadhead arrows on the other hand are much more accurate, but lack the ability to pierce armor.

This is incorrect on both points. The shape of the arrow head has little effect on the arrow's accuracy, and hardened broadheads made for warfare penetrate armour as well or better than bodkin points.


I see people writing about how broadheads would have been good against unarmored personnel, but I've also hunted with broadheads personally and I would question their ability to "kill" the enemy. When you shoot a deer with a broadhead, the deer runs away. He will eventually lose enough blood that he will lay down and take a little nap... and that's how you find your deer. Just think about that imagery the next time you see legolas shooting orcs and they fall like they just took a .50 cal round to the head.


You're ignoring the fact that medieval bows had substantially greater power than modern bows, and substantially heavier arrows. This was particularly true of powerful longbows as used by the English. This account by Gerald of Wales in Itinerarium Cambriae (1191) best illustrates the power of a longbow in the hands of a well-trained archer:

"...n the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal..."

It's ridiculous to think that you can draw any inference about medieval war bows based on your experience with modern hunting bows.



What I've read of Agincourt mentions a lot of French knights getting stuck in the mud after their horses are shot out from under them, and then getting trampled. The takeaway being that the arrows didn't kill the armored men, but that they were weighted down by armor and drowned in the mud.

Well no, I wouldn't expect a knight to be killed by an arrow if said arrow hit their horse rather than them.
 
Here's a couple videos of guys working spears vs swords 1 on 1.

Spear vs Sword and Buckler Nick vs Mike Sparring - YouTube

Spear vs Sword and Shield, Nick vs Jake Sparring - YouTube

A couple things to note in these videos:
1) The spear is awful short, and it's still just about impossible to get at the guy.

2) In the second video with the much larger shield, the swordbearer does better, but tends to just ignore the fact that the other guy is stabbing him repeatedly with the rubber spear point as he barrels in to "score". I think this may show the same bias that most of us probably have in that we generally want the swords to win (also, these guys all primarily fence with swords).


I can confirm from personal experience that in a sparring match it's very hard to fight against a skilled spear wielder using a sword. However, having also fought in a shield-wall formation I can also attest that formal sparring bears no resemblance to medieval warfare whatsoever.

This comes back to the issue in the OP; popular culture and our own romanticism has created an idealised notion of medieval warfare which is totally at odds with the reality of battle.

Hollywood, in particular, has a lot to answer for with their sparse, running battles that enable the hero to dance their way through the melee engaging foes one or two at a time.

The only film I've seen that has even come close to accurately representing shield-wall warfare is Troy, ironically enough a film based on a legend.
 
Not amongst the Romans it wasn't.

Fair enough, although the Romans still had plenty of spears around (eg Pillium, and early Triarii were armed with pikes).

The lance was a single-use shock weapon that would be discarded after the initial charge, and often wasn't used at all. The knight's main weapon was actually psychological. Most heavy cavalry charges broke the enemy without ever making contact.
This is a pretty broad generalization here that I don't find supported by history. That goes for cavalry not actually fighting, and also for spears and lances being "single use" and then discarded. Check out the Bayeux Tapestry for example, where Norman Cavalry are primarily seen attacking with spears. Understood that what we think of as a "Lance" may have been more of a tournament ornament.

Also of note: Cavalry "Lancer" units existed in European armies well into the 20th century.

This is unlikely. See my earlier post about the sword. Unless you got a special dispensation (and it was exceedingly rare) you weren't permitted to carry arms in a city or town. The normal day-to-day utility tool-and-weapon was the dagger.
Agreed on the day to day weapon as a knife or dagger. As for the sword dispensation, I agree, but only in certain societies and during certain periods of history. You will also find societies where the sword was worn generally as a sign of class or profession.

This is a bit of a side issue, but the heads on Legolas' arrows in the "Rings" movies are much closer to bodkin heads than broadheads.
Yes, but they are on the end of tiny little arrows that can fit hundreds in his little quiver.

30" is the average length of an arrow for an English Longbow (called a "yardcloth" for their length, and they were extremely accurate at short range.

It was long believed that bodkin arrowheads were intended to penetrate armour, but there's actually little evidence to support this. None of the recovered bodkin heads are made of hardened steel, and tests have found that the small, hardened broadheads more commonly used by English longbowmen have better penetrating power than even modern hardened bodkin points. The only exception is solid plate (which was exceedingly rare on the battlefield and primarily used on the tournament ground) but even then the broad head deforms the steel more than a hardened bodkin head penetrates it.
A 30 inch (or longer) arrow is a telephone pole for shooting, and I'm not sure that the accuracy matters much because they were generally shot into the air and lofted en masse towards enemy formations.

As for the Bodkin arrowheads and their use (or not) in piercing armor - I think I've been reading the same sources as you, and the big problem I see with the logic behind their testing is that they are shooting directly at armor, instead of lofting arrows up as they would be used in battles. My logic tells me that a heavy iron arrowhead would come down with a lot more force than a broadhead.

This is incorrect on both points. The shape of the arrow head has little effect on the arrow's accuracy, and hardened broadheads made for warfare penetrate armour as well or better than bodkin points.
Fair enough. I've never fired a bodkin arrow and the broadheads that I've used were machined to a level of consistency that now that I think about it is probably far beyond what could have been made throughout the middle ages.

You're ignoring the fact that medieval bows had substantially greater power than modern bows, and substantially heavier arrows. This was particularly true of powerful longbows as used by the English. This account by Gerald of Wales in Itinerarium Cambriae (1191) best illustrates the power of a longbow in the hands of a well-trained archer:

"...n the war against the Welsh, one of the men of arms was struck by an arrow shot at him by a Welshman. It went right through his thigh, high up, where it was protected inside and outside the leg by his iron cuirasses, and then through the skirt of his leather tunic; next it penetrated that part of the saddle which is called the alva or seat; and finally it lodged in his horse, driving so deep that it killed the animal..."

It's ridiculous to think that you can draw any inference about medieval war bows based on your experience with modern hunting bows.
On medieval bows being "more powerful" than modern bows... I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Although I did read one article that said there was "speculation" that Welsh longbows had draws up to 180lbs, the other estimates of 80-90lbs seems more likely given human physiology. As a teenager my draw weight was about 60 lbs (on a compound bow where through the magic of mathmatics the draw weight reduces dramatically at full draw for aiming), and we had some guys that would crank their bows up to 90lbs or higher (normally guys who were trying to show off - it certainly doesn't help accuracy).

The issue with higher draw weights is that your accuracy goes to **** because it's hard to hold and aim. Not an issue when you are aiming "In the general vicinity" of your enemies. A really high draw weight is also cool if you want to shoot a long way (heavier arrows help with this too), whereas if you are trying to aim and shoot at something that you can see in front of you, a more manageable weight is nicer.

Why would it be ridiculous to draw inference about medieval bows from modern archery? If I shoot in the recurve instinctive class at a tournament, I am shooting with medieval technology. As for an arrow's (or a bullet's for that matter) effect on flesh and blood... well I have direct experience with both of those, and I don't understand why it would be ridiculous or irrelevant.

Well no, I wouldn't expect a knight to be killed by an arrow if said arrow hit their horse rather than them.
There's a whole lot of debate on whether or not arrows actually killed armored knights at Agincourt that stretches well beyond this forum. We do know that the French walked all the way up to the English lines through the mud under that hail of arrows where the English archers knocked the exhausted French down with mallets (the ones used for pounding in stakes) and killed them by the hundreds.
 
This comes back to the issue in the OP; popular culture and our own romanticism has created an idealised notion of medieval warfare which is totally at odds with the reality of battle.

I think this was rather what I was trying to get at. Rather than attempting to say 'weapon A is ineffective in this situation and realistically everyone would have used weapon B', I was attempting to make the point that 'the pressures of society lean towards a character using weapon A despite common sense and historical evidence'.
 
I think this was rather what I was trying to get at. Rather than attempting to say 'weapon A is ineffective in this situation and realistically everyone would have used weapon B', I was attempting to make the point that 'the pressures of society lean towards a character using weapon A despite common sense and historical evidence'.


Which is why cavalry charged machine-gun posts at the beginning of WWI. Romanticism and custom soon gave way to common sense.
 
Back to a previous post - killing a horse effectively did kill the knight. Either the horse fell on him crushing him, they would drown water or mud, or footsoldiers would finish off the job.
 
Fair enough, although the Romans still had plenty of spears around (eg Pillium, and early Triarii were armed with pikes).

The pilum was a javelin, not a spear. The only spear the Romans ever used was a hasta, originally used by the hastati (they were named for it) but eventually used solely by the triarii who seldom actually engaged in battle. The overwhelming majority of the fighting was done by the hastati and the principes armed with gladii and pila. With the Marian reforms the triarii were scrapped altogether and all Roman Legionnaires were of the same class, equipped the same way with sword and javelin. It remained this way for five hundred years.


This is a pretty broad generalization here that I don't find supported by history. That goes for cavalry not actually fighting

It's a historical fact that through most of the history of warfare the overwhelming pattern of warfare was that sides would line up against each other and exchange projectile weapons. Eventually one side or the other would mount an attack. The attack would either break the other side immediately, or if the enemy held, the attacking side would break. The overwhelming majority of battle deaths would be inflicted as the victorious force ran down the broken force.

This is a result of basic human psychology, and the way interaction is driven by the fight-flight and dominate-submit responses.

The exception was in larger battles where subsequent waves of attackers would trap the defeated first attack, preventing them from retreating (as happened at Agincourt). In these sorts of battle a large majority of combatants died by being crushed to death, suffocated, or trampled.



And also for spears and lances being "single use" and then discarded.

It's a simple practical reality. You can't spear someone from horseback at full gallop and hope to retain hold of your weapon. More modern Lancers of the Napoleon era were able to do so because they weren't shock troops but skirmishing troops, so didn't strike their targets at the charge.


Check out the Bayeux Tapestry for example, where Norman Cavalry are primarily seen attacking with spears.

Yes, that's because heavy cavalry on the medieval battlefield was a "shock" weapon intended for a single hammer blow which would break the enemy. Medieval heavy cavalry was used the same way Alexander the Great used his Companion Cavalry.

By the High Middle Ages heavy cavalry were seldom used on the battlefield at all - instead light, fast-moving skirmishers were preferred, mounted on rounceys, in particular horse archers, which became increasingly common from the 14th Century.

Understood that what we think of as a "Lance" may have been more of a tournament ornament.

Tournament lances were certainly bigger and heavier than battlefield lances, but a lance best describes the way the weapon is used, rather than it's actual shape or design.


Also of note: Cavalry "Lancer" units existed in European armies well into the 20th century.

Yes, the Lancer was revived as an anti-cavalry weapon during the Napoleonic Wars. Many modern armour units (which carry the legacy of old cavalry units) are "Lancers".


Yes, but they are on the end of tiny little arrows that can fit hundreds in his little quiver.

Having actually handled said arrows and quiver, I can assure you that none of the above is true. The arrows were about 30" long, the quiver was rather large, and it certainly didn't fit "hundreds". I never actually personally counted them, but you could probably fit as many as 40 in if you really tried, but normally they only had about 15-20 in them.


A 30 inch (or longer) arrow is a telephone pole for shooting

Perhaps in modern terms. For English longbowmen it was normal.


and I'm not sure that the accuracy matters much because they were generally shot into the air and lofted en masse towards enemy formations.

English longbowmen were required to practise both long-range en masse fire and accurate targeted fire. During the course of a normal battle they would do both, with their accuracy and lethality increasing as the enemy closed.


As for the Bodkin arrowheads and their use (or not) in piercing armor - I think I've been reading the same sources as you, and the big problem I see with the logic behind their testing is that they are shooting directly at armor, instead of lofting arrows up as they would be used in battles. My logic tells me that a heavy iron arrowhead would come down with a lot more force than a broadhead.

The weight difference between a broadhead and a bodkin would be negligible, in most cases. The issue is one of the chemical composition of the steel. Bodkins weren't tempered (at least none of the bodkin points that have been found were tempered), which means the iron would deform or break with sufficient impact.


On medieval bows being "more powerful" than modern bows... I'm not sure where you're getting that from. Although I did read one article that said there was "speculation" that Welsh longbows had draws up to 180lbs, the other estimates of 80-90lbs seems more likely given human physiology.

Minimum draws were about 80lbf with maximum draws estimated as high as 200lbf. A replica of a bow recovered from the Mary Rose, used for testing performance, had a draw of 150lbf.

While it's true that a "normal" person would be physically incapable of such a draw, English longbowmen were not "normal". They were required by law to practise weekly, from a young age, and as such they developed unique physiological deformations - specifically enlarged left arms and bone spurs on the left wrist, left shoulder and right fingers indicating abnormally large tendons and muscles.


As a teenager my draw weight was about 60 lbs (on a compound bow where through the magic of mathmatics the draw weight reduces dramatically at full draw for aiming), and we had some guys that would crank their bows up to 90lbs or higher (normally guys who were trying to show off - it certainly doesn't help accuracy).

How many of them were professional archers who spent hours a week from the age of about 12 drawing a 100lbf bow? Did any of them have significant physiological deformations as a result of their archery practise?


The issue with higher draw weights is that your accuracy goes to **** because it's hard to hold and aim.

Not if your physiology has adapted for that specific task. We also don't know what techniques they may have used (such as drawing and releasing in one motion).


Not an issue when you are aiming "In the general vicinity" of your enemies. A really high draw weight is also cool if you want to shoot a long way (heavier arrows help with this too), whereas if you are trying to aim and shoot at something that you can see in front of you, a more manageable weight is nicer.

English longbowmen did both. If you had developed the right technique and physiology to handle a powerful heavy bow, they were substantially more devastating at short range, as actual medieval battlefield accounts indicate.

Of course everything you say of archers is true of other medieval archers, but that's the very reason everyone else used crossbowmen, and the only archers found on a high middle ages battlefield were English longbowmen or horse archers.


Why would it be ridiculous to draw inference about medieval bows from modern archery? If I shoot in the recurve instinctive class at a tournament, I am shooting with medieval technology. As for an arrow's (or a bullet's for that matter) effect on flesh and blood... well I have direct experience with both of those, and I don't understand why it would be ridiculous or irrelevant.

Because modern archers aren't even physically capable of drawing the bows used by medieval longbowmen. Modern archery is almost entirely about accuracy, and the equipment and materials used are totally different.

Bear in mind this isn't speculation of theory. We have recovered real longbows and the skeletons of real medieval archers so we can determine draw weights with reasonable accuracy.


There's a whole lot of debate on whether or not arrows actually killed armored knights at Agincourt that stretches well beyond this forum. We do know that the French walked all the way up to the English lines through the mud under that hail of arrows where the English archers knocked the exhausted French down with mallets (the ones used for pounding in stakes) and killed them by the hundreds.

French men-at-arms in quality steel plate were effectively invulnerable to arrow fire, even at short range (although some experts think the thinner armour on the arms and legs could be penetrated at short range), but the overwhelming majority of men-at-arms had poor quality wrought iron armour which, amongst other things, being heavier, had to be thinner. Even at ranges of 220yds the thinner arm and leg armour could be penetrated by arrows, while at short range even breastplates could be penetrated.

The French who managed to make it to the English lines weren't just exhausted, but severely wounded as well, and the English longbowmen only attacked them hand-to-hand after they'd exhausted their arrows.

Bear in mind the French only had to cover 300yds, and half of that would have been at a range that the English could selectively pick targets (from ranges of about 160yds English archers were expected to target individual soldiers).

Given the average speed of longbowmen (about ten arrows a minute), if they exhausted their arrows before the French reached them, it took the French about 4 minutes to cross the 300yds separating the armies (based on a standard load-out of 40 arrows per archer). That's pretty slow, and it means they would have spent a significant period of time at point blank range where the archers could have picked off targets one by one and driven their arrows through inferior armour.
 
The only film I've seen that has even come close to accurately representing shield-wall warfare is Troy, ironically enough a film based on a legend.

Have you seen Alexander? Pretty much the one good thing about that film was the battles showing greek phalanxes at work.

Also, I didnt think Gladiator did a bad job of it, in the battle at the start.

There are very few modern films that show medievil battles, now I think about it. The tv series Rome had a few short segments showing legionnaires at battle in formation as well.
 
Back to a previous post - killing a horse effectively did kill the knight. Either the horse fell on him crushing him, they would drown water or mud, or footsoldiers would finish off the job.

This is too broad. Through much of the Middle Ages, armored mounted men rode a horse to the battle, got off the horse, and fought on foot. What you called such fighters depends very much on how you translate the Latin sources that describe the battle, but there's no doubt they were distinguished from the pedites (footsoldiers). Moreover, the armor of a knight was not so heavy as to cause this problem until very late in the MA.

One must be careful not to generalize from Froissart's description of the fate of the French knights at Crecy and Poitiers to all battles over a thousand year span.
 
Yep, battle harness (even full plate) was pretty light. Generally speaking a knight had to be able to vault into the saddle in full armour. If it weighed more than ~15-20kg you were in trouble.

Of course, tournament harness was another matter entirely. The cliché of the knight being lifted onto his horse by crane was very true when it came to the joust. They could barely move in tournament harness, but then, they didn't need to.
 
Yep, battle harness (even full plate) was pretty light. Generally speaking a knight had to be able to vault into the saddle in full armour. If it weighed more than ~15-20kg you were in trouble.

Wasn't that just de Boucicaut, the famous Marshall of France, renowned for his extraordinary strength? I always took that story as an example of the extreme, not the norm.

Absolutely right about jousting armor, at least from the 15thc and later. There are many, many stereotypes about "the Middle Ages" that are found only from the end of the Middle Ages, or even later (16thc or 17thc).
 
The really expensive armour was light and protective. Most armour for mounted knights was not the kind you would want to walk around in, never mind fight a battle. Yes , it was highly exceptional for a dismounted knight to drown in water or mud, but it did happen (especially if fighting in water or close quarters. The reason why a dismounted knight was as good as dead (or captured) was twofold; firstly (even when risen) they were a walking (or prostrate) target for anyone who wanted to get rich quick. Also it was vital to finish them off before they became effective. They were effectively the tank of the medieval battlefield, and so they were high value targets for archers and foot-soldiers.
 
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