GRRM's writing

[Brian G Turner]

[WARNING! SPOILERS FOR THE GAME OF THRONES BOOK!]


Re-reading George R R Martin's Game of Thrones it's interesting to see how he uses various devices.

There are a lot of extremes: Long winters, White Walkers, the Iron Throne, the Eyrie, the Hound, the Mountain, Thyros, etc etc. These all have the effect of making an ordinary world more fantastical and larger than life.

However, the one thing that really strikes me about the book is use of conflict.

Various sources recommend using conflict as a story driver, and the higher the stakes the better.

And yet throughout Game of Thrones almost every chapter involves life and death stakes: the prologue, the dead direwolf as a porternt, the murdered Hand, Bran's fall, the assassin, tensions between Lannister and Stark, Lady, Tyrion's capture by Catelyn, his imprisonment in the Eyrie, etc etc etc.

Frankly I'm astonished not simply by how much conflict he uses, but how he often turns it into life or death for the characters. I can't think of any other book that lays it on so thick.

It's making me look harder at my own work to see how I can push on conflict and stakes more - never so much, bit a little more never hurt.

I just wanted to start this thread for a general discussion on use of conflict and high stakes and how GoT illustrates it, if anyone's up for it.

 

[Laeraneth]

Just a short answer for now as I'm pressed for time.

The main reason he gets away with that, I think, is because he IS willing to kill people off, and fairly liberally as well! Most stories and writers don't tend to do that, unless it's a serious crunch point (end of story, massive plot change, etc) so if their characters were in the same kind of constant peril that GRRM's are, then it would just lose it's impact and get... well... silly.

All that said... even constant and dramatic peril can get a bit tiring, mixing it up with occasional moments of joy, happiness, safety, etc, will make the peril that much more perilous!

(plus you have to refresh the pool of characters occasionally )

 

[Overread]

I think Laeraneth lands on the key point - GRRM will write a character into a corner with a sword to their throat and he's no fear of having it driven through and killing the character fully. This actually works well when he then pulls them back to life or writes them having some amazing escape because you believe the gravity of the death being really possible.

It's not a case of always thinking "how will he/she get out of this" its a case of "Will they get out of it or not" which I think makes its a more powerful page turner. GRRM possibly takes character killing a "little" far, but he's got a large character cast and a story written more strongly as a history of a world than as one following a specific hero or group of heroes so he's more to play with and more to potentially lose.

 

[Brian G Turner]

The interesting thing is that I'm 57% of the way through the book at the moment (according to my Kindle) and no major characters have died. Yet there have been a whole slew of life or death conflicts already raised.

That's what I mean - the way GRRM uses conflict to drive his story. I find it hard to think of another book that uses such high stakes so consistently.

 

[Scott R. Forshaw]

This thread got me thinking, Brian. A short while ago, I read an article regarding some of the most successful books of the modern era (sadly, I can't seem to find it now, however), and the two series' it highlighted were Twilight and Harry Potter. The reason why the author of the piece chose those two particular examples was to illustrate how books, which had received overwhelming criticism for their lack of literary style, managed to capture the imaginations of such a wide audience.

At first glance, I expected the writer to be a fan of both series'. She wasn't; her opinion was quite the opposite, in fact. What she did appreciate, however, was the amount of conflict which she found within each of the books. There wasn't a single page which didn't contain some element of conflict, she pointed out.

After reading her article, I now try to cram in as much conflict as I possibly can. There has to be something in it, huh?

 

[Overread]

Character death is a bit like the sex and violence in GRRM's books in that its present, but not anywhere near as much as casual conversation suggests it is (going by casual conversation you'd expect every other page to be rape followed by murder then incest then more rape and murder).

I also think that the market of mature fantasy that is read is actually quite small; young adult fantasy is the market that gets all the advertising and is more promenant - you have to hunt for more matured fantasy at times; so GRRM's story tends to be a lot of peoples "First" departure from the safer world of young adult (where such themes can be present, but only in limited amounts or in less descriptoin).

 

[Fishbowl Helmet]

It's mostly that Martin is a TV writer using prose as his medium, if you break it down, each chapter is basically an act to a TV script hitting many of the same markers and usually having a cliffhanger of some kind at or near the commercial break... I mean end of the chapter.

You can also see that in how melodramatic he is. As you say, everything's a life or death struggle all the time. If a character can't die per chapter, then they're seriously injured, if not that then their fortunes take a serious turn which almost always means a life threatening situation.

 

[ZombieWife]

GRRM has awesome chapter models, imho. I just attended a stellar seminar about how to write great chapters and they used GRRM as an example. He ends chapters with uncertainty. In each chapter, he always addresses these two big questions:

1. What does the character want?
2. What is standing in the way?

Just by looking at these two things, one can get a really great idea of how their novel is unfolding at a macro level. I use a spreadsheet.

Column 1: Chapter (# or title).

Column 2: POV (I have a multiple POV novel).

Column 3: 2-3 sentence summary of chapter.

Column 4: How the character wants/desires/goals manifest or change.

Column 5: Emerging themes

Note, that I did this after draft 1 and was amazed at how many chapters I had where I did not address one or BOTH of the above questions.

I think if you have the objectives/obstacles notably present in each chapter, the conflict will come. I am also reading a great book right now, Scene and Structure by Jack Bickham. It's great for showing you how to play up your characters' wants (and conflict) in each section.

I, Brian, your comments really speak up the life/death situations. For me, epic fantasy is about higher stakes, and I think that's why Martin fits so nicely into that genre.

 

[Brian G Turner]

A short while ago, I read an article regarding some of the most successful books of the modern era (sadly, I can't seem to find it now, however), and the two series' it highlighted were Twilight and Harry Potter. The reason why the author of the piece chose those two particular examples was to illustrate how books, which had received overwhelming criticism for their lack of literary style, managed to capture the imaginations of such a wide audience.

At first glance, I expected the writer to be a fan of both series'. She wasn't; her opinion was quite the opposite, in fact. What she did appreciate, however, was the amount of conflict which she found within each of the books. There wasn't a single page which didn't contain some element of conflict, she pointed out.

After reading her article, I now try to cram in as much conflict as I possibly can. There has to be something in it, huh?

I think I may have read the same book.

I've got an editing note - ensure conflict on every page - but I think it's an ideal I will struggle with.

1. What does the character want?
2. What is standing in the way?

That's really interesting - screenwriting principles again - but it would be especially interesting to see if anyone wanted to deconstruct a couple of chapters like this.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I think I may have read the same book.

I've got an editing note - ensure conflict on every page - but I think it's an ideal I will struggle with.


/QUOTE]

FWIW, I'm not sure about this. I got some pretty extensive editing notes back from an agent yesterday. I write pacy stuff with conflict all over the place and shift pov regularly to keep the conflict up. She wants a slow down, a bit more introspection and depth, a reduced level of ongoing conflict in return for greater world building and depth.

I liked GRRM's first two books, I might even stretch to the third, in ASOFAI, but after that, I think he pads out the book, which, even if there is conflict everywhere, slows it far too much. I found the last two books close to unreadable, and had to skim a lot of it to get to the end. Even if there is conflict in every chapter, there has to be an overall pace and shape to support that conflict, and I think that's what was lost in, especially, the over, over, long ADWD.

 

[Erin99]

Since reading Donald Maass' workbook, I try to include conflict on every page (I'm not the best with this when introducing a new character, though ). The great thing is, conflict doesn't have to mean rip-roaring action and tenseness. You can have fun and humour and world description - as long as the characters are still conflicted underneath and readers feel a sense of peril. Internal conflict is just as good as external. And with external, there are several different types - you don't just have to have "protag vs antag".

I agree with the point raised a couple of times above, though: when it's life or death in every chapter, it gets... wearing. There's far more conflict out there than "Will he/she die?" A book can have too much action, which is detrimental to character introspection and moments to catch breath.

You have to have lows so the high are even more powerful. Robert Jordan was a master at this. His highs were phenomenal.


Edit: And, thinking, GRRM uses more than just "life or death" - you mention the long winter - that in itself is a great example of conflict: environmental conflict; character vs a harsh environment. I wrote a piece about the different conflict types, based on an article I read by David Babouline. It was a real eye-opener to what conflict is.

 

[ZombieWife]

I definitely agree that "conflict" does not equal swords drawn and fistfights here. The wants/needs/obstacles (conflict) can be a subtle thread sewn throughout the chapter. You look at some of Tyrion's chapters, for example, there isn't a lot of action, but there is intrigue and courtly risk-taking.

I also agree that as the series progresses, Martin adds a lot. GoT was such a tight novel, then they just get more and more bloated as time goes on. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy most of the bloat (names, family lines, etc).

 

[Brian G Turner]

I definitely agree that "conflict" does not equal swords drawn and fistfights here. The wants/needs/obstacles (conflict) can be a subtle thread sewn throughout the chapter. You look at some of Tyrion's chapters, for example, there isn't a lot of action, but there is intrigue and courtly risk-taking.

I'm not long out of the "Tyrion in the Eyrie" chapters, but the use of extremes and conflict I thought worked especially well there:

- Tyrion is a captive of Catelyn, who thinks he tried to murder her son - that creates an immediate sense of threat

- the Eyrie is an extreme place. It is also a very remote place where Tyrion has no friends and only enemies

- Lysa and Robert - extreme and whimsical characters who take control from Catelyn with more extreme accusations: not least that Tyrion killed Jon Arryn

- the Moon Door and Sky Cell - no one need try to kill Tyrion. He can "accidentally" fall to his death. Especially with his jailer being the sadistic Mord.

- it's made very clear that Catelyn misdirected any pursuit, so no one will try and rescue Tyrion from the Eyrie - and even if they somehow did know, it's impregnable. Tyrion is shown to be completely isolated.

It all sets up an enormous amount of threat, and when he calls for trial by combat not only do people queue to kill him, the one given the task is so professional a knight that he disdains any combat.

Even when Bronn wins Tyrion's freedom, that chapter end makes it plain that Tyrion must fight through the mountains to reach freedom - and we saw getting here how dangerous that was.

At every step Tyrion faces life or death threat. His want is simple - to stay alive - but so many things are stacked against him that it seems impossible that he can escape.

Heroes being in danger is a staple of fiction, but in this example the danger and threat is made very real, and layered. It's not so much that we expect Tyrion to live or die - we simply cannot know because his obstacles are so immense through the use of extremes and conflicts.

It's a very clever set of scenes.

 

[ZombieWife]

Yeah, at first, Tyrion is definitely facing more physical threats: Catelyn, the trial, the barbarians, the battle against Robb and his men. When he becomes the Hand, there is a lot of political risk-taking and such. Then more physical danger with the Battle of the Blackwater. Then more political danger. In Dance with Dragons, he enters into more physical peril again, but there is also the subtle conflict as well.

Now I want to go back and start reading these again.

 

[Gumboot]

This is an interesting topic. I think if Martin has one major weakness in this area it's a lack of variation. Martin's characters are in persistent peril from other people, with death just around the corner. They're consistently in hostile environments where their every effort runs into an enemy.

But inter-personal conflict is just one type of conflict. The other two; intra-personal and environmental, are notably missing. His only serious attempt at internal conflict is with Daenerys in the later books, and his efforts are pretty clumsy and unsophisticated. Even where environmental conflict is available, he tends to turn it into inter-personal conflict; the approaching winter becomes the approaching white walkers, and Tyrion's dangerous venture through the mountains becomes a conflict with the mountain clans.

 

[Lady of Winterfell]

I think GRRM did a really good job with his use of tension/conflict in the first few books. I think he got a bit carried away in the last two, and in ADWD especially. Nearly every chapter ended with an over the top cliffhanger (as I remember). I felt like he was doing it just because he could, or he felt like he had to overdo it to make up for the lack of events moving forward in ADWD.

However, I still love these books.

 

[Glen]

Thanks to this thread for letting me know what GRRM was. I saw it in another thread and though it was perhaps something an angry, but hesitant dog might say. BTW - does anyone know what ASOIAF is?

But I digress, "Story" by Robert McKee is a great book on screenwriting. And it's all about conflict. Every scene should put an obstacle between the hero and his or her aim. Voila! Conflict.

I might be oversimplifying slightly. Nevertheless, you can get the full saga here:
Story: Substance, Structure, Style and the Principles of Screenwriting: Robert McKee: 9780060391683: Amazon.com: Books

 

[Ursa major]

ASoIaF is shorthand for A Song of Ice and Fire, the series to which A Game of Thrones (AGoT), A Clash of Kings (ACoK), ASoS (A Storm of Swords), AFfC (A Feast for Crows) and ADwD (A Dance with Droagons) belong. Next will come The Winds of Winter (TWoW) followed, eventually, by A Dream of Summer (ADoS, not ADioS).

 

[ZombieWife]

ASoIaF is shorthand for A Song of Ice and Fire, the series to which A Game of Thrones (AGoT), A Clash of Kings (ACoK), ASoS (A Storm of Swords), AFfC (A Feast for Crows) and ADwD (A Dance with Droagons) belong. Next will come The Winds of Winter (TWoW) followed, eventually, by A Dream of Summer (ADoS, not ADioS).

Nicely done! All those bolded letters! My wrists would be hurting after that.

 

[Rolynd]

This is an interesting topic. I think if Martin has one major weakness in this area it's a lack of variation. Martin's characters are in persistent peril from other people, with death just around the corner. They're consistently in hostile environments where their every effort runs into an enemy.

But inter-personal conflict is just one type of conflict. The other two; intra-personal and environmental, are notably missing. His only serious attempt at internal conflict is with Daenerys in the later books, and his efforts are pretty clumsy and unsophisticated. Even where environmental conflict is available, he tends to turn it into inter-personal conflict; the approaching winter becomes the approaching white walkers, and Tyrion's dangerous venture through the mountains becomes a conflict with the mountain clans.

Do you really think so? I thought that Jamie's internal conflicts produce one of the best written characters in the genre. The character evolves from someone you despise who has no real redeeming features to someone you root for on every page. IMO of course.