GRRM's writing

[Erin99]

Thanks to this thread for letting me know what GRRM was. BTW - does anyone know what ASOIAF is?

Sorry to go off topic, but ! Wow. I thought GRRM (hey! That's like saying "grim" with a slur - apt?) had infiltrated everywhere.

 

[Gumboot]

ASoIaF is shorthand for A Song of Ice and Fire, the series to which A Game of Thrones (AGoT), A Clash of Kings (ACoK), ASoS (A Storm of Swords), AFfC (A Feast for Crows) and ADwD (A Dance with Droagons) belong. Next will come The Winds of Winter (TWoW) followed, eventually, by A Dream of Summer (ADoS, not ADioS).

A Dream of Summer got its name because it's going to be the glue that binds the entire series together....

 

[Gumboot]

Do you really think so? I thought that Jamie's internal conflicts produce one of the best written characters in the genre. The character evolves from someone you despise who has no real redeeming features to someone you root for on every page. IMO of course.

Mmmm, Jaime is a perfect example. Jaime doesn't have any internal conflict at all. Jaime is decidedly comfortable and happy with Jaime, it's everyone else that has a problem with Jaime, and what Jaime has a problem with is everyone else.

The reason we take an about turn on Jaime is not because of an internal conflict, but because our perspective on him changes from external to internal, so at the beginning we see him as everyone else sees him, and we too have a problem with him. Later, we see him as Jaime sees him, and like Jaime, we think he's alright. Jaime's view of himself never changed.

 

[Rolynd]

Mmmm, Jaime is a perfect example. Jaime doesn't have any internal conflict at all. Jaime is decidedly comfortable and happy with Jaime, it's everyone else that has a problem with Jaime, and what Jaime has a problem with is everyone else.

The reason we take an about turn on Jaime is not because of an internal conflict, but because our perspective on him changes from external to internal, so at the beginning we see him as everyone else sees him, and we too have a problem with him. Later, we see him as Jaime sees him, and like Jaime, we think he's alright. Jaime's view of himself never changed.

No way! It's not jsut perception, Jamie really does evolve. At the beginning it seems Jamie just doesn't care how others view him, but as the books progress it becomes clear that he does care, or starts to. His relationship with Brienne shows him this, he starts to want to prove himself to her, to in some way gain he esteem. The Jamie of book one would never have gone back to get Brienne from Hoat. Then of course he is torn by how he feels about Cersei, and the slow dawning realisiation that she is actually a pretty nasty piece of work. He even describes how torn he is in one passage, where he talks about the oaths you make to all sorts of people and how you can't do anything without breaking at least one.

I could go on for ages, but I genuinely can't see how Jamie could be described as someone who has no internal conflict. Madness!

 

[Gumboot]

No way! It's not jsut perception, Jamie really does evolve. At the beginning it seems Jamie just doesn't care how others view him, but as the books progress it becomes clear that he does care, or starts to.

The key word in the above is "seems". It seems like Jaime doesn't care because we only see him through the eyes of other people, and most of those people hate him.

His relationship with Brienne shows him this, he starts to want to prove himself to her, to in some way gain he esteem. The Jamie of book one would never have gone back to get Brienne from Hoat.

The Jaime of book one was mostly Jaime as the Starks saw him, and they wouldn't have thought he'd go back to help someone, because they thought he was a selfish scumbag. He was never a selfish scumbag though. Remember, the Jaime of book one is also the Jaime that violated the laws of hospitality to save the life of his children, and the same Jaime that violated his holy vows to save the people of King's Landing.

His character-defining moment happened years ago.

Then of course he is torn by how he feels about Cersei, and the slow dawning realisiation that she is actually a pretty nasty piece of work.

There's nothing really new about Jaime in that. What changes for him is Cersei's attitude towards him. That's inter-personal conflict, not intra-personal conflict.

He even describes how torn he is in one passage, where he talks about the oaths you make to all sorts of people and how you can't do anything without breaking at least one.

Again, that's Jaime in conflict with others, not himself. He's pretty comfortable with it, and with choosing to follow the oath that suits him best, his issue is how others feel about it, and how others judge him for it (even though they do the same thing).

I could go on for ages, but I genuinely can't see how Jamie could be described as someone who has no internal conflict. Madness!

Martin does a good job of masquerading a lot of his inter-personal conflict as internal or environmental conflict, but if you actually start looking at it, you'll realise he doesn't have any major conflicted characters, except Daenerys, who he makes a mess of. All of his major characters are very sure of who they are, their problem is that the rest of the world doesn't accept them or see them the same way. If anything, that's probably Martin's single strongest theme.

 

[Sander]

I think you're a bit quick to write off internal conflict, Gumboot.

I'd argue that Theon displays a lot of internal conflict. Some of it is triggered by external events, sure, but he's never sure of where he belongs. Is he a Stark or a Greyjoy? Is he Reek or is he Theon?

There's also Jon Snow, who is struggling with his identities as a Stark and a Snow, or later as a Man of the Watch and a Wildling. He comes out of the later conflict clearly on one side, and he's telling himself one thing throughout the conflict, but the fact that he's telling himself something doesn't mean there isn't conflict there. Because he is constantly tempted, he betrays his vows etc.

Ultimately I do think you're right that the series is driven by external conflict, and a lot of that is generated by people feeling like they don't belong in their environment or peer group.

 

[Gumboot]

I'd argue that Theon displays a lot of internal conflict. Some of it is triggered by external events, sure, but he's never sure of where he belongs. Is he a Stark or a Greyjoy? Is he Reek or is he Theon?

Okay I'll give you Theon-as-Reek, I'd forgotten about that recent addition. Old Theon certainly wasn't conflicted about who he was, but Martin has delved into some interesting territory with Reek-Theon. Probably why he's become my favourite character!

There's also Jon Snow, who is struggling with his identities as a Stark and a Snow, or later as a Man of the Watch and a Wildling. He comes out of the later conflict clearly on one side, and he's telling himself one thing throughout the conflict, but the fact that he's telling himself something doesn't mean there isn't conflict there. Because he is constantly tempted, he betrays his vows etc.

I don't think you can argue that he's conflicted just because you can imagine a place where internal conflict could have gone. That just shows that Martin missed an opportunity. It's actually the perfect example, because Jon is beautifully set up to be a tortured, conflicted character, but the reality is he's not. Throughout his entire Wildling ordeal he's never of two minds. He knows, with certainty, that he's a man of the Night's Watch. There's never any question of him changing sides.

Likewise, whenever Jon is confronted with a test of loyalty to the Starks vs the Watch, to begin with the conflict is decidedly brief each time, and even then Martin frames it as external conflict. This is where it gets somewhat tricky, and the distinction is pretty fine, but Jon isn't distraught, unsure of what to do, tortured. He makes his decisions quickly, sure of himself, and acts on them. There's no self doubt.

I can understand why Martin writes it the way he does; he's a TV writer and it's virtually impossible to effectively show internal conflict in the TV format so even where he wants to show internal conflict he's used to projecting it outwards as external conflict.

It's interesting that in the later books there's some internal conflict starting to leak in there, it suggests that Martin is coming to terms with the opportunities of the written medium. It just surprises me it's taken this long considering he so beautifully exploits the closed perspective of the written medium, which is impossible on screen (and the only major problem I have with the TV series).

 

[ZombieWife]

I love Reek. I was so angry at Martin for making me like him, too.

 

[Sander]

Okay I'll give you Theon-as-Reek, I'd forgotten about that recent addition. Old Theon certainly wasn't conflicted about who he was, but Martin has delved into some interesting territory with Reek-Theon. Probably why he's become my favourite character!

He is fascinating. Some of the best-written chapters in those books are Reek/Theon's.

I don't think you can argue that he's conflicted just because you can imagine a place where internal conflict could have gone. That just shows that Martin missed an opportunity. It's actually the perfect example, because Jon is beautifully set up to be a tortured, conflicted character, but the reality is he's not. Throughout his entire Wildling ordeal he's never of two minds. He knows, with certainty, that he's a man of the Night's Watch. There's never any question of him changing sides.

Likewise, whenever Jon is confronted with a test of loyalty to the Starks vs the Watch, to begin with the conflict is decidedly brief each time, and even then Martin frames it as external conflict. This is where it gets somewhat tricky, and the distinction is pretty fine, but Jon isn't distraught, unsure of what to do, tortured. He makes his decisions quickly, sure of himself, and acts on them. There's no self doubt.

That's a fair point -- there are hints of internal conflict, but he never really shows or exploits it. It's all action- and event-driven. Thinking back, that's probably true of most of the characters in the books. There's very little agonizing over decisions or identity in general, and where there's conflict decisions get made without much internal reflection and doubt.

I hadn't really thought of the books in that sense before, which is interesting. Probably a consequence of the skill with which they're written.

 

[Overread]

Different authors focus on different things, I think getting behind the mind of a character is often bit deeper to that character itself and tends to be something that I've seen with smaller or solo character focuses in the story. Also a lot of personal internal turmoil tends to come across best when written in a journal style where the character is the narrator.


I'd say that if you tried to merge Robin Hobb's style of strong internal character mind writing with Martins high action you could get a great result; if it were limited to one or two characters. I think spread out over the huge cast that Martin has you'd just get way too bogged down; or certain characters would appear more weighty than others because they'd get more "behind the mind" time than the others (as a necessity to get things into the book in a suitable page count). I think one of Martin's strengths is that whilst not all are equal in the story of the world; each character is nearly equally presented to the reader when they get their own chapter.