Who is the heir of Winterfell?

[Brian G Turner]

SPOILERS!



In Game of Thrones, Ned is Lord of Winterfell, Robb succeeds him, and we are told that Bran follows Robb in the succession, hence why he holds court in Robb's absence.

We already know the fates of Ned and Robb, and Bran appears extremely unlikely to take the seat.

Which, following the male line, leaves only Rickon as the practical successor to Winterfell. Yet we see precious little of this very young boy.

That aside, how does this stand Sansa and Arya politically? Presumably they cannot inherit Winterfell, in which case can Sansa's marriage to Tyrion really give him any claim over the north?

Additionally, with Littlefinger playing for Sansa, can he really hope to gain politically from it, or is his interest in Sansa purely in lieu of the mother he couldn't have?

Generally speaking, presuming that Winterfell still exists as a political entity - or at least, Lord of the North - then who is likely to carry that title and to what effect?

I just find it strange to think Rickon - whom we see so little of, and additionally is so very young - is going to take over the place.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Might it revert to a distant relative, perhaps the Karstarks?

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Rickon's there for a reason, or GRRM wouldn't have had him in. I'm kind of looking forward to finding out why.

 

[Jonathan C]

Didn't Robb name Jon Snow as his heir?

 

[Dozmonic]

Robb named Jon and Stannis wanted to legitimise Jon too - I'm not all the way through ADWD so I don't know what happens up to the end there

 

[Jonathan C]

Well, the thing that does happen at the end might interfere with this plan somewhat, but I'm not too worried about it, because I don't think it will be a permanent problem.

 

[Koopa]

Rickon.

 

[devilsgrin]

Rickon is the rightful heir - but he has been declared dead... so even if he were to return, his claim would be weak. Throw in that no-one will recognise him as Rickon Stark by the time he returns from Skagos (?).

Sansa is the acknowledged Heiress to Winterfell - its the reason the Lannisters married her to Tyrion.

That aside, how does this stand Sansa and Arya politically? Presumably they cannot inherit Winterfell, in which case can Sansa's marriage to Tyrion really give him any claim over the north?

of course she can, its the way it works throughout Westeros... I mean Cercei is Lady of Casterly Rock remember. male lords-consort tend to wield the power though, unless the wife is sufficiently assertive and competent. they become Lord-Protector of ... in this case Winterfell. Tyrion and Sansa have not consummated their marriage however, leaving Sansa quite capable of having the marriage annulled if necessary - in order to wed Harry Hardyng for example.

 

[Sander]

For all practical purposes, who is the "rightful" heir really doesn't matter very much. It's whether whomever is laying claim to the throne can somehow justify it, however weakly, and then rally enough support behind him to make that claim count. Which is why you have Ramsay Bolton/Snow marrying fake-Arya. That claim to the seat is about as tenuous as it gets, but it counts, and no one's going to call the Boltons on it unless they can challenge their forces.


I don't remember Martin ever spelling out succession rules relating to gender. They may be different for different parts of the Seven Kingdoms, too. That was the case in medieval Europe, at least -- and there's always a bit of practical, case-by-case politicking involved in succession problems.

 

[Gumboot]

I don't remember Martin ever spelling out succession rules relating to gender. They may be different for different parts of the Seven Kingdoms, too. That was the case in medieval Europe, at least -- and there's always a bit of practical, case-by-case politicking involved in succession problems.

It's pretty clearly established at multiple points in the books that the Seven Kingdoms have male primogeniture. The only feasible exception is Dorne, because they tend to do things a little differently, and we haven't seen enough of them to know.

I think you're right though; any notion of "rightful" has gone well and truly out the window, and at this stage in the game we're in the conquest mode of inheritance.

 

[Koopa]

Sorry but the North is different from the South.
Something House Lannister don't fully understand. If Rickon lives, he'll inherit Winterfell no matter what the other houses say. They will have to kill the boy and silence a whole bunch of northern leaders. In fact that is what is happening right now. House Lannister trying to make the north do what they want through House Bolton, and the North in the midst of civil war. methinks in the long run, the Boltons don't stand a chance whilst Rickon lives.

 

[devilsgrin]

Sorry but the North is different from the South.
Something House Lannister don't fully understand. If Rickon lives, he'll inherit Winterfell no matter what the other houses say. They will have to kill the boy and silence a whole bunch of northern leaders. In fact that is what is happening right now. House Lannister trying to make the north do what they want through House Bolton, and the North in the midst of civil war. methinks in the long run, the Boltons don't stand a chance whilst Rickon lives.

um... remember that the north thinks Rickon is DEAD. And since he was all of 3 when Osha took him off towards Skagos... proving he is who he is will be impossible.

 

[Koopa]

The lord of White Arbor knows better and some other lords may know as well by now.
+ Even before they knew Rickon was alive, it seems many northern lords where more than a little disgruntled to accept Roose Bolton, and oly grudgingly did so because of Arya Stark. Once it becomes widely known she's a fake, or missing....

 

[Nerds_feather]

Maybe Rickon will eat the pretender to Winterfell, in true Skagos tradition.

 

[Boaz]

Proving Rickon will be harder than Aegon. At least with Targs, people can point to the hair and eyes... and the Valyrian traits are impossible to miss. With Rickon, they'll point to the red Tully hair or mayhaps the long Stark face, but neither make the impression that a Targ does.

Whomever wins will decide The Lord/Lady of Winterfell. Neither Jon nor Rickon will claim it while the Lannisters rule. None of them will benefit from Stannis either. And remember that Daenerys has hardened her heart towards House Stark... and the same goes for Connington. The only hope for the Starks if they cannot defeat their enemies, is for Sansa to marry a new Lord of Winterfell... namely Daven Lannister or Gerion Lannister returned from the dead.

 

[Eulalia]

If Sansa and Tyrion agree that it was consummated, for whatever reason, Then they are still married or will be after a brief boinking. They would have to loudly protest to have it legally annulled, and they may not be motivated to do that. But they could end up motivated for a variety of reasons. It might be the reverse of the long Catherine of Aragon vs Henry VIII dispute.

 

[Koopa]

Proving Rickon will be harder than Aegon. At least with Targs, people can point to the hair and eyes... and the Valyrian traits are impossible to miss. With Rickon, they'll point to the red Tully hair or mayhaps the long Stark face, but neither make the impression that a Targ does.

Whomever wins will decide The Lord/Lady of Winterfell. Neither Jon nor Rickon will claim it while the Lannisters rule. None of them will benefit from Stannis either. And remember that Daenerys has hardened her heart towards House Stark... and the same goes for Connington. The only hope for the Starks if they cannot defeat their enemies, is for Sansa to marry a new Lord of Winterfell... namely Daven Lannister or Gerion Lannister returned from the dead.

They got a bunch of direwolves (whilst they live) to back up their claim.

 

[Raul]

I have no idea who will be the Heir Of Winterfell, but I feel deep sorry for her/him -. to became a ruler of land which is near to collapse by militarily and economically, destroyed by civil war and endless winter, with capitol burned down and population nearly wiped out.. naah, I think all Starks have best to be there where they are right now and I hope GRRM will not be so cruel to make any of them to return

 

[devilsgrin]

They got a bunch of direwolves (whilst they live) to back up their claim.

Rickon MAY have ONE direwolf to back up his claim... hardly a bunch...

Lord Manderly may or may not know about Rickon at all. We are given nothing definitive either way.
What we DO know, is that in the eyes of Westeros, and the Seven Kingdoms, Brandon and Rickon Stark were slain when Winterfell fell to Theon Greyjoy.

What advantage would most (if not the vast majority, even many in the North) of the lords of westeros gain from recognising Rickon as who he is?

 

[Koopa]

Rickon 1, Bran 1, Jon Snow 1, Arya 1 :that's 4 direwolves for the Starks.
As long as 1 of them becomes the next lord/lady of Winterfell i'm fine with it.
I could even live with the Karstark girl who married the Thenn.

I don't want Sansa (her mother's southron influences where bad enough imo).
Out of those i think it most likely Rickon will be it. Direct male line, no cripple, possible of making heirs, has a direwolf, knows Winterfell (and part of it's secrets), is known To Manderly (info he's got from the mute boy makes it clear enough for him), with Manderly being one of the most important Houses in the North.

Second is Jon Snow (Robb's decision, Mormonts, Blackfish missing, NW seemingly beyond repair, only his vow may keep him away).

Third is unfortunately Sansa (Southerners will push her, has a good claim, known to be alive BUT missing. Don't misunderstand, whilst i'm still no big of Sansa, i don't hate her either, it's just that she is too much a Tully, and i don't want her as he Lady of Winterfell. I feel the north should belong to the North Gods, and i'm actually somwhat miffed at Ned, for actually making a shrine so his wife could pray to her lousy 7. (says some1 who in RL doesn't truly belief in any god/religion)

Fourth is the Fake Arya.
Fifth, Karstarks
I left out Real Arya since methinks she'll never be the Lady of Winterfell.

What advantage would most (if not the vast majority, even many in the North) of the lords of westeros gain from recognising Rickon as who he is?

The north never cared much about the South, they where independant in all but name. So choosing against Bolton, and his southron backing wouldn't be so strange. The North has been ruled by Starks for hundreds of year, most of the North seems to love the Starks too, so ingrained loyalty will go a a long way. The House of Stark is imo what House Targaryen is to the 7Kingdoms. The one unifying house whom they can all agree , and accept rulership from. But far more so. The ties between the House of Stark (blood of the First Men, ....) and the North in all possible ways seem very strong, seem to run far deeper than the feeling people had for generations till Robert Baratheon overthrew them for the Targs.


Especially as they are all fond of saying the North remembers. And it is most fresh in many northern memories what The Freys did, That Robb went to war with the South and claimed independance, and Boltons part in it all seems to be creeping through from the cracks. Indeed from what i've seen from the Boltons the northern allegiance to them is on very thin ice, with cracks appearing. The only one whose truly loyal to them are people like the Lady of Hornwood, the Karstaks uncles, people like that.

besides There Must Always Be A Stark In Winterfell, dont you know