Who is the heir of Winterfell?

[ArstenWhitebeard]

besides There Must Always Be A Stark In Winterfell, dont you know

It is known!

I am also of the opinion that the appearance of ANY stark children, even if their legitimacy is questionable, would work to turn most of the northmen against the boltons.

if it IS rickon who comes back, I would also like to point out that we have no idea what kind of life he is currently living. He might just be hiding in some cave somewhere living with Osha, or he might be some defacto boy-ruler with an army of viscious scagosi willing to fight for him.

 

[Sander]

Rickon 1, Bran 1, Jon Snow 1, Arya 1 :that's 4 direwolves for the Starks.
As long as 1 of them becomes the next lord/lady of Winterfell i'm fine with it.
I could even live with the Karstark girl who married the Thenn.

I don't want Sansa (her mother's southron influences where bad enough imo).
Out of those i think it most likely Rickon will be it. Direct male line, no cripple, possible of making heirs, has a direwolf, knows Winterfell (and part of it's secrets), is known To Manderly (info he's got from the mute boy makes it clear enough for him), with Manderly being one of the most important Houses in the North.

Second is Jon Snow (Robb's decision, Mormonts, Blackfish missing, NW seemingly beyond repair, only his vow may keep him away).

Third is unfortunately Sansa (Southerners will push her, has a good claim, known to be alive BUT missing. Don't misunderstand, whilst i'm still no big of Sansa, i don't hate her either, it's just that she is too much a Tully, and i don't want her as he Lady of Winterfell. I feel the north should belong to the North Gods, and i'm actually somwhat miffed at Ned, for actually making a shrine so his wife could pray to her lousy 7. (says some1 who in RL doesn't truly belief in any god/religion)

Did you really internalize the nonsensical moral code of rule that GRRM is kind of trying to deconstruct throughout his books?

I mean, if there's one thing I'd take away from the books it's that might tends to make right in practice, and that all of those associations were established through bloody conquest and sometimes abusive rule. Not that region A is supposed to belong to ruling class A because fluff.

I also think that the whole he who can manifest the most power will end up ruling thing has been pretty much true throughout the books. Blood loyalty and stuff like that is nice, but if they find a ruler for the north who is somewhat palatable, those would do fine, too.

 

[Koopa]

i know of right of conquest BUT
1. I still come to the conclusion that these people will most like rule Winterfell when all is ste and done.
2. GRRM has made it clear the North is different from the South, the blood of the First men still make up the population of the North and so too their religion (the old gods).
3. GRRM has made it clear that House Stark has ruled the north for a far longer time-period then any other Great House has ruled it's domain.
4. GRRM has made it clear the Starks are very loved by most Northmen.
5. The north even after bending the knee to the dragons lived basically independant from the South.
6. GRRM has also shown that whils right of conquest might work on a smaller scale, but it is more difficult to make it last on a larger scale. Take Robert baratheon, yes he conquered the Kingdoms, and yes through Jon Arryn all of them (at least whilst bringing thir own plans to fruitation) bended their knees, BUT they did not accept him, the way they did the Targs, cause the Targs where considered special. Not so the Baratheons, why is he allowed to rule whilst i can rule just as well was probably whispered more than once. The Kingdoms did not accept Baratheon rule the same way they accepted Targ rule. And i believe this to be even far more the case with the Boltons. Whilst Dorne for it's own sake decided to stomach Robert as king, i do not see the same happenig unanimously from the northmen for the Boltons. Not with other alternatives and especially a fullblooded Stark out there. Even now the peace hangs on Fake Arya.

+ Even in smaller scale it is show how for the population it is better to seem a continuation of the previous ruler --> Why that lancel freak was told to married the gatehouse of Darry.

 

[Sander]

I would say that many of the things that you say GRRM has shown, are in fact little more than in-universe stories/justifications told to each other that haven't actually held up when we look at the events in the books.

The North is fundamentally different from the South! Except they all act the same way, the two just like to scoff at each other. The blood of the first men is important! Well, not really, all we've seen is that the Starks (and mostly just the Starks and no one else) keep going on about it. Winterfell is the seat of the north! Well, it's burned down now. So much for that. That sort of thing. Only the Targaryens can rule! Except Robert Baratheon did reasonably well. Certainly better than his Targaryen predecessor.

It just seems to me that you're taking all of the in-character statements as facts rather than looking at the universe, filled with its myths, nonsensical traditions and stories, with a slightly more critical eye.

 

[Koopa]

It is different from the South, and it is shown. Winter brings a whole different tale to life that the South doesn't experience. They live in a harsher environment and it does show.
The south consists of 6 smaller kingdoms, the North is just as big as the entire south.

The blood of the first men is important, cause through it they keep to the Old Gods and the Heart trees. And we know through Bran that can be quiet important. It is no coincidance Jaime is introduced to a charachter with connection through heart trees in the South. Their is also the connection to the wall, the others, ....

Winterfell wood is burned down, but the stones and stuff what makes Winterfell winterfell is just fine. Especially since the Boltons have begun reparations.

There is no doubt that with the Targs, their legendary dragons, looks, they where considered special. Surely it is easier to bend the knee to a special family, instead of someone you think no better then yourself.

The Starks are of similar status, if not more so in the North. They where loved/envied beyond a doubt. And loyalty towards the Starks remains. hence the Mormonts saying to Stannis, Hence the Lord of White Arbor plans, hence why it was so important for Ramsay to wed Fake Arya, why the Boltons settled in Winterfell for the wedding instead of the Dreadfort, ....

I'm not saying right of Conquest isn't possible, the puzzle, the right circumstances need to fall into place. And that ain't happenign for The Boltons, the opposite in fact is true. The baratheon are actually a great example of all the pieces falling into place. Mad King, discontent in the Kingdom, no more dragons, Starks pissed off ... . He succesfully managed to rid himself of anyone with enough power to oppose him (Killed all adult Targs, alliance with Lannister, managed to quiet down Dorne and Tyrell) and still managed to botch it up royally, leaving the door open for other contenders. Including the Targs who's tales of beauty, dragons remains

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

I'm with Koopa on this one. The starks have developed a level of loyalty in most of their bannermen that most other major houses cannot claim. I think it would even extend to the point that, if they could have a male stark in winterfel, even one of questionable legitamacy, most of the north would support him and kill the remaining Boltons, hornwoods, karstarks and as many freys as they could get their hands on (gods know they are a slippery bunch). I think, even if rickon turns out to be a complete monster, worse than Ramsay, he would still win the support of most of the North.

 

[LilyDraken]

I agree with both Koopa and Arsten on this.

We know the Manderlys have rallied several northern families, and they're just waiting to get their hands on a Stark heir to rally their banners behind.

As for unwavering loyalty, there's no question, and I'll back it up with this. Everyone in the north knows what a monster Ramsay Bolton is. They've all heard the tales of his fondness for "hunting" and what really goes on with that. They all know what happened to Lady Hornwood, after the fact. News didn't spread until after she'd died. That being the case, I don't think for one minute that Fake!Arya was fooling a single northern lord, especially Manderly. With how loyal they are, does anyone think for a moment that they would sit idly by and let Ned Stark's little girl get used as Ramsay Bolton's plaything? The answer is NO. Even in biding their time, I highly doubt that a single one of Ned's bannermen would allow such a thing to happen to Arya Stark.

Additionally, these self-same northern lords know Arya Stark, even if not well. They might not know her on sight (and Jeyne is passible enough to the untrained eye if you don't look too closely), but they would know her by manners. You could make the argument that she's been gone a while, could've learned those nice southern manners, but no, there's a problem with that. Arya looks and acts exactly as her aunt, Lyanna. Lyanna is not only remembered fondly, but is still beloved in the north. Little Lyanna, in the form of Arya, would not be left to suffer the cruel abuses of Ramsay Bolton. No way.

I personally think there's been word somewhere along the way of Rickon being alive somewhere. Why else would Manderly specifically request Davos for such a risky venture? They need to get their heir back to rally their banners behind and get rid of the Boltons for good.

Bran I don't think is coming back. He might be first in line to be heir of Winterfell, but he can't if he's actually the connected roots of the heart tree. I think we can safely rule Bran out for the line of Winterfell succession.

 

[Pedro Del Mar]

Rickon will be instantly recognisable to anyone who knew him closely - Jon, Theon, Sansa, Arya. Plus the direwolf will be a dead giveaway

 

[ZombieWife]

Technically, isn't Tyrion still married to Tysha? When Tyrion asked Tywin what happened to Tysha, he simply said, "She went wherever whores go," or something of the like.

They didn't get the marriage annulled, did they? I don't remember. I know Tyrion was only 13 when they married, so maybe it wasn't legit?

One could argue (Littlefinger especially) that:

1. The marriage was never consummated, so isn't valid.
2. Tyrion is still wed to Tysha. If anyone could find her and present her, it would be Littlefinger.

So, Sansa is still a player, with or without Bran and Rickon.

If Jon is Lyanna and Rhaegar's (and not Ned's) then he'd have slightly less claim to the throne as he wouldn't be Ned's son. But that doesn't seem to have made a difference when Robb named him heir.

I think Winterfell will pretty much go to whomever can hold the darn thing. Let the south come at them with the Others (and the true winter) knocking on the door of the Wall. I don't think right to the north means much anymore, not after Theon and Ramsay got their paws into Winterfell.

 

[Koopa]

Why announce to the world of Tyrions marriage by askig for annulment. The way Tywin handled it, no one would ever found out about Tysha, and if hey did, look the other way.

 

[ZombieWife]

Why announce to the world of Tyrions marriage by askig for annulment. The way Tywin handled it, no one would ever found out about Tysha, and if hey did, look the other way.

If Littlefinger wants to free Sansa up, he could easily argue that Tyrion is still married. The only two people in all of Essos who could possibly use this information (Tyrion's first marriage) and turn it into a threat are Littlefinger and Varys. And since Littlefinger has clear motive to want Sansa free and clear (and marriage-able) then you never know. I'm not counting Tysha out just yet.

As long as Tyrion doesn't end up with Penny, we're all good. Ugh.

 

[ArstenWhitebeard]

i don't expect Tysha to show up. I also must say that Littlefinger doesn't need to use tyrion's previous marriage to annul his "current" marriage. tyrion is an exiled king slaying kinslayer. ANY handy, possibly slightly corrupt, holy-man could annul the marriage based on those grounds alone.