Fantasy book with themes like goodness, honour and justice

[LightBringer]

I'm looking for recommendations on a good book to read. I have seen some in existing threads, but since I have some very specific things that I look for in a book, I wanted to make a new thread. For instance, I like George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire in terms of the world he has created and the way he writes, but, without going into too much detail, I didn't like the turn of events. Bad things has to happen for there to be some reason to read a story, it can't be all flowers and sunshine, that would just be dull. On the other hand, I don't read a book to become depressed or to revel in the cruel and treacherous behaviour of the characters. So-called realistic fantasy seems to go to far in this direction for my taste. I want to read a story about honour, bravery, goodness as well as the dark things that are necessary to make the story exciting and worth investing your time in. A book where the author's primary goal is to shock his readers is not what I'm looking for. An unexpected turn of events is one thing, but I don't want a book where the writer deliberately toys with his readers.

So, to sum it all up, are there any books in the fantasy genre that you can recommend that fit the above-mentioned criteria? I would appreciate it a lot.

 

[hitmouse]

The Narnia books by CS Lewis

 

[Moggle]

You can't do better than Harry Potter.

 

[LightBringer]

The Narnia books by CS Lewis

I've of course heard of them, and it's probably high time I read them. Thanks for the recommendation.

You can't do better than Harry Potter.

I've read them and I love those books Other than that I have read The Lord of the Rings (and most of Tolkien's other books) and His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman. And that's about it in the fantasy genre.

Just to clarify, I don't mind the fantasy books that are targeted more towards adults, as long as it's not as bleak and depressing as A Song of Ice and Fire.

 

[hitmouse]

The question is really how much darkness or moral ambiguity are you prepared to put up with.

Narnia is good for what it is (muscular Christian fantasy), but otherwise the field is potentially a bit restricted, and you may be ruling out a lot of classic works that are not usually listed with such as Fire & Ice: Brothers Grimm is pretty nasty in places, King Arthur has lust, betrayal, infidelity etc, and the Greek myths can be quite kinky.

Pilgrim's Progress is probably a safe bet, but it is terribly terribly boring.

 

[HoopyFrood]

Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time series would suit such themes. I'm going through the series right now, up to book nine and what I'm enjoying about it is that it's not overly dark and certainly not depressing. People actually laugh and make jokes! Because I'm also getting a bit tired of the relentlessly grim feel to 'realistic' genre, too. It's a classic good vs evil kind of plot, but there's loads going on around that and a really well fleshed out world (even if the characters themselves aren't always so )

 

[Montero]

Guy Gavriel Kay's Fionnovar trilogy. It does have dark moments in terms of what the characters go through but it is by no means a depressing read. (I don't like those either.) Honour is definitely there in the cloth - not so much a theme as such as in some of the characters.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Sanderson's Mistborn? The setting is bleak, but the characters strive to overcome that.

 

[Heather Myst]

How about the Second Sons trilogy by Jennifer Fallon? it is a series where the hero uses his brains instead of magic to solve his problems. Book one is The Lion of Senet.

 

[j d worthington]

And to bring in some older writers -- though the series ran from 1963 until her death in 2005, Andre Norton's Witch World books also have a notable tendency toward such themes. She was an old-fashioned storyteller in many ways, with no few of the biases that implies, such as a strong belief in courage, inventiveness, humanity, and endurance for the greater good. (She also wrote an enormous amount of other work, including quite a few fantasy standalones, and an almost endless array of YA sf novels, most of which remain thoroughly enjoyable even after several decades.)

Of course, Tolkien's works carry such themes, whether they be his better-known stories of Middle-earth, or his shorter, less famous tales such as "Farmer Giles of Ham", "Smith of Wootton Major", "Leaf by Niggle", etc.

F. Marion Crawford's Khaled might also suit what you're looking for, though its model is the Arabian Nights' Entertainments in manner.

Fletcher Pratt's The Well of the Unicorn deals with such as well, though it may be the final resolution of the story may not be to your taste (then again, it just might, as it is very poignantly handled).

Katherine Kurtz, with her Deryni series, also shares these concerns; while they also play a large role in Poul Anderson's fantasy work... though, again, such things as The Broken Sword "has not a happy ending". Still, the importance of such qualities is without question.

The overall thrust of Michael Moorcock's work is very much concerned with these themes, though individual pieces of that (enormous) puzzle may seem to contradict that; however, you might give The Revenge of the Rose a try; even though it comes in the middle of the Elric saga, it can easily be read on its own, and if you like that, you may care to try some of the others. The Corum cycle finally ends on a tragic note, though again these themes are pervasive throughout; but, as with the Elric series, these are part of a much larger tapestry which does (in its various "endings" to the cycle, of which there are several) end on a more hopeful note.* A rather different type of fantasy which is still part of this larger cycle, which would also meet your requirements, would be the "Second Ether" books, Blood, Fabulous Harbours, and The War Amongst the Angels.

*Some of these "endings" would be the final book of the Hawkmoon sequence, The Quest for Tanelorn, the third (or fourth, if you include the graphic novel by Moorcock and Howard Chaykin, The Swords of Heaven, the Flowers of Hell) John Daker novel, The Dragon in the Sword, and even the enormously complex graphic novel, Michael Moorcock's Multiverse. There are, however, others.

 

[hitmouse]

Moorcock is brilliant, but, as might be expected from a leading light of the New Wave, his fiction has sh*tloads of moral ambiguity, questionable decisions by the Eternal Champion, rape, orgies, incest, cruelty etc etc, though it is certainly not pornographic in the main. Even Hawkmoon, arguably the most straightforward of the big 4 series, contains enough weird nastiness to make it rather subversive for the juvenile fantasy it superfically appears to be.

Moorcock is never particularly interested in straightforward goodness, honour, and justice. One of my favourite writers.

 

[nixie]

I can't believe I'm saying this

Here goes David Eddings, Belgariad and Malloreon, are enjoyable but after awhile all that goodness does start to make you crave a real gritty read but if you do like them then move onto the Elenium and Tamuli series, these four series do have a certain charm are entertaining and easy to read.

I'd stop after that and steer well clear of Redemption of Althalus and Dreamers.

 

[LightBringer]

Thanks for the suggestions. I really appreciate it!

The question is really how much darkness or moral ambiguity are you prepared to put up with.

Darkness is necessary for the story to be thrilling and I have nothing against moral ambiguity. Characters struggling with difficult decisions between right and wrong can make quite interesting reading if it is done well. However, nowadays, when someone says moral ambiguity it often seems to mean the characters are more evil than good. When almost every character in a story is this way it becomes depressing to read and any admiration for this type of character is impossible for me. I want there to be at least one obvious hero (he/she doesn't have to be perfect though), and there can be all kinds of characters in between this good guy and the ultimate villain (like for instance Sauron). Truly evil characters are there because we love to have someone to hate. Many great stories have at least one truly despicable character because their terrible actions awakens emotions in the readers and makes us invest in the story. We want some justice for the offended party, sometimes revenge is even more satisfying. Characters who are more morally grey can serve as a foil for the good guy(s) (like Gail Wynand does for Howard Roark in The Fountainhead) and make us see what kind of persons they are. The hero himself can of course do wrong things and be forced to face the consequences of his actions, even if they are severe. But there has to be someone for me to root for who isn't killed off for the sole purpose off messing with my head.

A story of a fallen hero can also be interesting (examples are Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars or Arthas Menethil in Warcraft 3) because in these kinds of stories you can sympathize with the hero/villain and understand why he does the things he does even though many of his actions are wrong. All in all, I guess you can say I want the good and the bad to balance out somewhat.

 

[hitmouse]

Ok. Ayn Rand. Thats interesting.

Not Fantasy, but have you tried JG Ballard? True SF morality tales

The Drowned World
The Crystal World
The Wind From Nowhere

 

[j d worthington]

Ok. Ayn Rand. Thats interesting.

Not Fantasy, but have you tried JG Ballard? True SF morality tales

The Drowned World
The Crystal World
The Wind From Nowhere

Also Concrete Island, Crash, and High Rise... though these are a bit harder to take at times....

On Moorcock: He was never interested (save perhaps in the Sojan stories) in simplistic notions of these concepts, but frankly I'd say the struggle to establish a humane form of them, and maintain it with all the implications of the term "humane", lies at the core of all his work. Ambiguity is there, certainly (e.g., Glogauer in Breakfast in the Ruins -- one of my favorites of his novels -- who pretty much runs the gamut in his various lives... not to mention Jerry Cornelius), but to me that is because he is exploring the necessary nuances of finding that balance which allows one to be both "good", "just", etc., while also remaining a dynamic force in the world around one. Also, his concerns are for the establishing of a truly just and humane order in the larger scheme of things, which means a rather wide range of approaches to solutions are exhibited in dramatic terms in his work.

We may, of course, be saying essentially the same thing in different terms, but if the reader is looking for work which explores these themes on a more complex level, then I think his work is well worth giving a try. On the other hand, if what is sought is (frankly) more two-dimensional, then no, he isn't a good suggestion. What I gather here, though, seems to me to lead in the other direction....

 

[antiloquax]

The Ill-Made Mute by Cecilia Dart-Thornton. This is the first of the Bitterbynde trilogy. It weaves in a lot of traditional fairy-tale material. I loved it. Stuff goes wrong (of course) but it's never grim.

The Forgotten Beasts of Eld by Patricia McKillip. A beautiful, magical tale.

 

[jastius]

I guess we are being allowed to flog our favorites.. The Hundred Thousand Kingdoms by N. K. Jemisin, charles delint's jack of kinrowan, Prince of Thorns and the King of Thorns both by Mark Lawrence, the Night Angel series by Brent Weeks, The Ruin series by author Isobel Noble, both Gentleman ******* books (Lies of Locke Lamora & Red Seas under Red Skies)..

 

[antiloquax]

Prince of Thorns and the King of Thorns both by Mark Lawrence

Haven't read these, but after reading a thread about the books on this forum, I'm guessing they are not what the OP is after:

"I don't read a book to become depressed or to revel in the cruel and treacherous behaviour of the characters."

 

[Toby Frost]

I would nominate T.H. White's Once and Future King or John Steinbeck's Acts of King Arthur, because they're both excellent. They do deal with moral complexity and difficult issues, but they're sophisticated enough to see the difference between that and Monty Python gore.

Of course, now you mention Ayn Rand, I seem to remember there being some fantasy novels influenced by her somewhere or other, but I don't recall them being light on the rape and murder. And besides, what could be more depressing that encouraging humans to be more selfish? But I digress.

 

[lauren$77]

I would nominate T.H. White's Once and Future King or John Steinbeck's Acts of King Arthur, because they're both excellent. They do deal with moral complexity and difficult issues, but they're sophisticated enough to see the difference between that and Monty Python gore.

Of course, now you mention Ayn Rand, I seem to remember there being some fantasy novels influenced by her somewhere or other, but I don't recall them being light on the rape and murder. And besides, what could be more depressing that encouraging humans to be more selfish? But I digress.

He he!

I'm ashamed to admit I really enjoyed Faith of the Fallen - but in my defense I was younger, naive.. and probably skimmed the pages containing 'the objectivist' rhetoric!

I read his online interview not so long ago and was appalled! Fantasy Book Critic: An Interview with Terry Goodkind

Er.. Yes Mr TG people should pay their taxes! And my happiness is not being 'sacrificed' because I believe people should be able to claim benefits! And I'm pretty sure poisoning a river in any situation is bad.

Okay... this is really off thread.. hope I'm not in trouble!