The collapse of Bronze Age civilisation

[svalbard]

The Trojan Prince Muksus mentioned in the above link is referenced in other inscriptions from the time and maybe identified with an Achaen called Mopsus. A bit of freebooter by all accounts which fits nicely with a ''Sea Peoples' theory.

 

[svalbard]

A Centuries-Old Frieze, Newly Deciphered, Tells the Story of the End of the Bronze Age

Eberhard Zangger | Luwian Studies - Academia.edu

A link to the full academic article. If you are a member of academia.edu(it is free to join and worth it) you will be able to download the paper.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I noticed this story come up of a major citadel unearthed in Romania:
Great archeological discovery: 3400-year-old citadel unearthed in Romania - Romania Insider

It got me wondering if there may be any connection - if there was a general migration from the steppes of Asia to the Mediterranean then it would certainly be expected that we should see some evidence of this.

Assuming there's anything in that idea.

 

[Venusian Broon]

I noticed this story come up of a major citadel unearthed in Romania:
Great archeological discovery: 3400-year-old citadel unearthed in Romania - Romania Insider

It got me wondering if there may be any connection - if there was a general migration from the steppes of Asia to the Mediterranean then it would certainly be expected that we should see some evidence of this.

Assuming there's anything in that idea.

Haven't the Steppes always seen a conveyor belt of peoples travelling from it to various points in Western Europe/Turkey/Northern India for as long as we have history? (And by inference for Prehistory too )

As for proving there was a migration I suppose if you could show that the citadel was abandoned (and not destroyed) at around that time, that that might suggest that something made the people give up their fortifications and buildings and move on.

We know that there were towns and cultures in that area of Eastern Europe from pretty early on - as in 'well before' the date of this citadel! - see the Vinca and Varna cultures for example.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Indeed, there is a lot here that's unknown to me, so I'll keep an eye out and see if anything else comes up that may suggest any possibility of being connected.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Just following up from this, it appears that climate change is blamed for the collapse of the Indus Valley civilization around 1500BC - I thought the dating so close to the Bronze Age Collapse that it definitely warranted attention, supporting the idea that climate change caused problems with crop growth and yields, thus causing the mass migration of peoples: Climate change likely caused migration, demise of ancient Indus Valley civilization

 

[thaddeus6th]

Those bloody Hittites and their coal-fired power stations!

*shakes fist*

Have vague memories of reading the blurb for a book about collapsing European/Middle Eastern/North African civilisations (Egyptians, Hittites, Minoans and, er, some other chaps) around 1477 BC or so. Changing climate has always happened, sometimes with dramatically harmful effects. Not hard to see how crops suddenly being more difficult to harvest or wild storms ruining trading and fishing fleets could push things to the edge. Even 3,000 years after that, two bad harvests in a row would see huge numbers just starve to death.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Okay, I'm reading Cline's 1177 now, and am checking up references as I do so.

He's just mentioned the Santorini eruption, dated to somewhere around 1600-1500 BC, so I checked up the Hekla 3 eruption - which is going to be blamed as a major cause for the collapse of Bronze Age civilizations.

The first problem is that Wikipedia doesn't mention Hekla 3 in its list of biggest volcanic events in history, certainly not from around 1100BC. Additionally, there's a massive degree in magnitude between the two eruptions:

Hekla 3:
circa 1100BC
Volcanic Explosive Index of 5
7.3 cubic km of rock thrown into the atmosphere.
Effect on the world: cooled the northern hemisphere for several years afterwards, causing significant climate change that resulted in the collapse of civilizations around the world

Santorini eruption:
circe 1600BC
Volcanic Explosive Index of 7
60 cubic km of rock thrown into the atmosphere.
Effect on the world: some impact on the local Minoan civilization

I'm already left scratching my head here - if the Santorini eruption is one of the biggest ever recorded in written history, and was local to the Aegean, then how come an eruption near the Arctic Circle that was ten times smaller cause worse damage?

Also, my reading is that there was major climate change in Britain around 800BC, but there are no major volcanic events associated with that.

The implication is that if a volcanic eruption is the smoking gun for climate change leading to Bronze Age collapse in the Mediterranean, then there had to be something specifically significant about the smaller eruption much further away.

Alternatively, the eruptions had irrelevant to minor effects on climate change, so that volcanic eruptions are not a smoking gun but a red herring.

I'm also left wondering just how reliable ancient dating currently is - I'm increasingly getting the impression that something is very off-kilter, especially if the Hekla 3 eruption can be blamed for collapse of Mediterranean civilizations around 1100BC, but Northern Europe not be affected by climate change until around 800BC.

Hmm. Just thinking aloud.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Okay, I'm reading Cline's 1177 now, and am checking up references as I do so.

He's just mentioned the Santorini eruption, dated to somewhere around 1600-1500 BC, so I checked up the Hekla 3 eruption - which is going to be blamed as a major cause for the collapse of Bronze Age civilizations.

The first problem is that Wikipedia doesn't mention Hekla 3 in its list of biggest volcanic events in history, certainly not from around 1100BC. Additionally, there's a massive degree in magnitude between the two eruptions:

Hekla 3:
circa 1100BC
Volcanic Explosive Index of 5
7.3 cubic km of rock thrown into the atmosphere.
Effect on the world: cooled the northern hemisphere for several years afterwards, causing significant climate change that resulted in the collapse of civilizations around the world

Santorini eruption:
circe 1600BC
Volcanic Explosive Index of 7
60 cubic km of rock thrown into the atmosphere.
Effect on the world: some impact on the local Minoan civilization

I'm already left scratching my head here - if the Santorini eruption is one of the biggest ever recorded in written history, and was local to the Aegean, then how come an eruption near the Arctic Circle that was ten times smaller cause worse damage?

Also, my reading is that there was major climate change in Britain around 800BC, but there are no major volcanic events associated with that.

The implication is that if a volcanic eruption is the smoking gun for climate change leading to Bronze Age collapse in the Mediterranean, then there had to be something specifically significant about the smaller eruption much further away.

Alternatively, the eruptions had irrelevant to minor effects on climate change, so that volcanic eruptions are not a smoking gun but a red herring.

I'm also left wondering just how reliable ancient dating currently is - I'm increasingly getting the impression that something is very off-kilter, especially if the Hekla 3 eruption can be blamed for collapse of Mediterranean civilizations around 1100BC, but Northern Europe not be affected by climate change until around 800BC.

Hmm. Just thinking aloud.

I assume then you've not got to the end of the book then

This might be a spoiler if you want to allow the argument to come to you 'naturally' through your reading, although this is non-fiction....anyway I'll put it in spoiler tags!

Spoiler: My vague memories of the main argument of the book

His argument is precisely the fact that you cannot point to a single cause to explain the Bronze age collapse, but it was a 'system collapse'. The civilisations at the time were highly dependent on each other in complex ways and they were then probably hit by a number of uncorrelated disasters that clearly broke up the established order.

I think there seems to be some evidence of mass migration of peoples from northern Europe into the Mediterranean (possibly caused by local changes in climatic conditions forcing them to to abandon old territories. Such an event may have been instigated by such a volcanic eruption. Or that in itself may have only been a contributing factor for that particular observation.

With regards to the effects of volcanoes....well, it depends doesn't it. What did the volcano produce? Rock is one thing, but how much gas and particulates were put into the atmosphere that would have knock on effects on climate? And where the volcano is should have big influence on how this interacts and where it hits the hardest. Add to that, that the climate is a chaotic system, so even a smaller event leading to, say, cooling in a particular location could have huge ramifications to the entire system. Look at the current warming we are experiencing. The poles are warming much faster than everywhere else and this is impacting the polar jet stream making it more likely to kink south and impact British weather.

It's a bit like the asteroid hypothesis for causing great extinctions. Yes, you can point to the Chicxulub asteroid as being the best explanation for the cretaceous extinctions, but other bigger 'hits' are not lined up with other extinctions at all. Why? Well, we think that it was because the Chicxulub asteroid hit the sea bed, hence vapourised carbon-rich rock. This ended up in the atmosphere and caused huge climatic fluctuations that would have caused huge species diebacks. Other asteroids having hit silicon rich areas would have had much less impact on that front.

 

[Brian G Turner]

This might be a spoiler

Thanks for the clarification - I remember "systems collapse" being mentioned, but I also seem to recall reference to Hekla 3 being blamed as a cause - I may have been mixing up my sources, though.

EDIT: It looks like it was Wikipedia that put me onto Hekla 3: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse#Volcanoes

 

[Venusian Broon]

Thanks for the clarification - I remember "systems collapse" being mentioned, but I also seem to recall reference to Hekla 3 being blamed as a cause - I may have been mixing up my sources, though.

EDIT: It looks like it was Wikipedia that put me onto Hekla 3: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Bronze_Age_collapse#Volcanoes

I think there's a tendency amongst us humans for nice neat solutions to problems (myself included)....but the world is mostly grey, not black and white.

 

[Ursa major]

but the world is mostly grey

That'll be because of all the volcanic ash....

​

 

[thaddeus6th]

I've not read it, but that systems collapse thingummyjig sounds like a slightly more complex version of Steven Mithen's argument that it was the combination of men hunting and climate change that did for so much megafauna ten to twenty thousand years ago, and that either one factor by itself would've been survivable.

 

[Brian G Turner]

Re; 1177 BC - The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric Cline ended up being somewhat frustrating. He builds up a picture of an interconnected Bronze Age world in the Mediterranean, but in the end he effectively dismisses the collapse as somewhat inevitable due to it being a "complex system". In short, Bronze Age Mediterranean societies had reached such a complex degree of connectedness that it was easily undone by natural challenges.

All in all, I thought he completely dodged the bullet and effectively reframed "I don't know" with "systems collapse, because" - which doesn't actually explain anything.

Something I found especially frustrating is that he mentions climate change as a potential cause, especially severe drought - but then dismisses it as a smoking gun because the region has "always seen droughts". The big question begged is how severe were these droughts by comparison?

The answer, according to his own references, is that the region experienced the worst period of drought of any period during either the Bronze Age or even Iron Age. Well, there's a clear cause for the collapse of trade, society, along with social upheaval and migration.

On the plus side, the book is rich with references for further research.

 

[thaddeus6th]

Interesting thoughts. I'd considered getting that book but never got around to it.

 

[Venusian Broon]

Re; 1177 BC - The Year Civilization Collapsed by Eric Cline ended up being somewhat frustrating. He builds up a picture of an interconnected Bronze Age world in the Mediterranean, but in the end he effectively dismisses the collapse as somewhat inevitable due to it being a "complex system". In short, Bronze Age Mediterranean societies had reached such a complex degree of connectedness that it was easily undone by natural challenges.

All in all, I thought he completely dodged the bullet and effectively reframed "I don't know" with "systems collapse, because" - which doesn't actually explain anything.

Something I found especially frustrating is that he mentions climate change as a potential cause, especially severe drought - but then dismisses it as a smoking gun because the region has "always seen droughts". The big question begged is how severe were these droughts by comparison?

The answer, according to his own references, is that the region experienced the worst period of drought of any period during either the Bronze Age or even Iron Age. Well, there's a clear cause for the collapse of trade, society, along with social upheaval and migration.

On the plus side, the book is rich with references for further research.

I agree with the frustrating end, I think I mention that in my own summary of it somewhere in this thread.

'System collapse' is brought in, I think he states it's a real thing...yet fails, in my eyes, to posit the mechanics of it and how this relates to the evidence.

However on the other hand I do think he's being intellectually honest at least, in that he's sort of saying 'we don't really know' .

So I took it as a nice summary of what we know about it and all the various theories that have been suggested.

As for the 'it was the drought that done it'. I don't remember all the evidence, but I'd guess that it can't be that simple, otherwise it would be the leading theory, and that some strands of evidence do not show it being pertinent or a big factor

 

[Brian G Turner]

Interesting thoughts. I'd considered getting that book but never got around to it.

It is an interesting book, and Cline is very experienced in the Bronze Age Aegean. He brings a lot of knowledge to the fore and many of his examples of Bronze Age life are illuminating. However, he also underlines how limited a lot of the archaeological record actually is, which makes it especially difficult to draw clear conclusions on local conditions. For me, this is good, because I love mystery.

What I think is really missing from the book is a proper exploration of environment and climate in the past - however, that's simply my personal bias as I find myself increasingly drawn to environmental archaeology (hence my comments, @Venusian Broon ).

 

[Venusian Broon]

Indeed, @Brian G Turner , a fascinating subject. I have read a number of great books on archaeology projects that link up excavations, pollen records, local tree ring analysis and other related fields to try and paint a very detailed picture of a singular site/small region.

I think the problem is, like any discipline, a proper understanding of environment and ancient climates is, in itself a whole new rabbit hole to disappear down. And concrete answers are unlikely to be found!

 

[Brian G Turner]

I'm currently reading Exodus to Arthur by Mike Baille, who by all accounts is a leading expert on dendrochronology - the use of tree rings for dating. He also specifically mentions Hekla 3 being a contender for the Bronze Age collapse event as an initial idea.

However - and this is really striking - the couple of archaeology books I've read so far on this completely fail to use environmental science in their considerations.

For example, the Ancient Greeks were pretty good at distinguishing and naming the different winds and weather patterns that effected them. Therefore if there were a sudden and long-lasting change in the weather, my first go-to would be to meteorology and examine which ocean currents and wind patterns might drive such a situation.

Instead, Cline just refers to systems collapse, which is really just re-using the recent archaeology trend of systems analysis to pigeon-hole different aspects of a culture (hence why a lot of books now describe technology, beliefs, trade, gender, etc, as separate topics).

Mike Baille on the other hand - well, an expert in tree rings he may be, but he's sorely lacking the skills for historical analysis and can't seem to distinguish mythology and history. Additionally, when looking at extreme climate events his first go-to is volcanic eruptions - his second is comet strikes!

It's an interesting book, but like the Cline I'm left silently yelling at the text to research the meteorology and climatology, instead of taking them for granted.

 

[Venusian Broon]

For example, the Ancient Greeks were pretty good at distinguishing and naming the different winds and weather patterns that effected them. Therefore if there were a sudden and long-lasting change in the weather, my first go-to would be to meteorology and examine which ocean currents and wind patterns might drive such a situation.

I don't really know if the ancient greeks were great at meteorology, but I am pretty sure there no Mycenaean written records of the weather or climate for 1177 BCE or whenever it was. Or any Mycenaean writing at all (at least that we have discovered).

There was, as Cline points out, Hittite, Egyptian and other peoples records, such as those that inhabited in modern Syria and Babylon. And I guess they really don't mention weather or climate. The Egyptians didn't really rely on rains, but the Nile instead, so it probably wasn't on their minds to comment on such matters. (Or at least they didn't realise that they heavily relied on rains in Ethiopia to feed the river.)

If a lot of the records at that time were talking about famine or crop failure, then perhaps we'd have a smoking gun re: climate change. I can't remember if there was. (Although not necessarily always true - a country ravaged by long-term war could also succumb to famine, I'd imagine.)

It seemed to me, from my reading, that people today were suggesting that the most intense area of climate disruption, if there was one, was central and north Europe and that caused migrations south. Unfortunately none of the peoples directly impacted by this alleged event can tell us anything as none of their writing (if they had any) has survived. My theory would then go: such migrations caused the collapse of the Mycenaeans and societies in Southern Europe and then these civilisations took to raiding as an alternative to the settled life that had been enjoying before that (and therefore became the sea people). Tin and Bronze trade got heavily disrupted, wealth drops, rebellions against the existing empires from outwith and within intensify. Further cutting trade etc...Bronze age collapse.

BTW that Greeks took to the sea, traded and also raided (very much like the vikings) is pretty well known for that period. I thoroughly recommend Robin Lane Fox's Travelling Heros: Greeks and their Myths in the Epic Age of Homer to get an idea of the sort of societies we are dealing with. It's detailed (a lot on pottery, but then, that's where we get a lot of our evidence. Some people find it a bit dry, but I think he is putting down all the evidence in a academic manner, and I liked the rigour.) He did a BBC programme on it, that I thought was a very good summary as well, so if you can find that, I'd recommend that too.

Extreme (i.e. quick) climate changes do require, IMO, extreme mechanisms. I don't think you are going to get random 'normal' climate variations to explain big changes. Volcanoes are good. As would be asteroid/comet strikes!

As for comet strikes...I do remember it as a possible mechanism for explaining the Youngers Dryas. Although there are a number of other theories for it.