Darkened Fragments, My First Chapter: 3209 words

[WriterJosh]

You're missing the point - your story does not start at 1500 words - it starts at the first word.

And stop trying to explain the story - the story is supposed to do that.

It really is best just to digest what people have said, and not look to do anything as yet. Taking a critique at any time can be a little hard - no one understands the story or the context, so some criticisms will necessarily reflect that. And taking a crit for a first time is probably the hardest.

Let things sink in, think around the comments and the story, and some comments will start to make more sense than others and you'll start seeing ways to apply them.

I understand that. I'm absorbing the comments. I'm not rejecting them out of hand, but I did feel, and still do, a little, that if I could have posted the full chapter, several people's confusion would have been addressed.

I was going for a gradual reveal. I don't like infodumps. I don't like using them myself and I don't like it when other authors do. Which is funny, because it appears I was guilty of that myself, or at least of being repetitive.

General question; what, apart from how the characters spoke, made this seem YA? I'm really asking so I can fix it. The characters are young, yes, but they're supposed to be young people caught up in a story that's for adult readers, like Sansa and Arya in A Song of Ice and Fire for example.

 

[martin321]

I liked it enough to read to the end (which isn't always the case with pieces posted for critique), but pretty much agree with the rest of the comments. It was technically competent, but it didn't grab me and make me want to read the whole book. I don't mind slow starts to novels (some of my favourite books are really slow to get going), but if I'm flipping through a book by an unknown author (whether in a bookshop or on Amazon) then they need to hook me on page one in order to make a sale.

I took it to be YA because:
1) The two characters seemed to be fairly young.
2) The language is simple and straightforward.
3) A number of things are explained or repeated unnecessarily. Children's books tend to explain things more, so as not to confuse the readers.
4) As a reader I didn't need to do any work to figure out what was going on.

I'd have liked some description of the surroundings early on, even if just a few words. And a little more conflict or higher stakes would be good too.

Really, it is a good piece, it just needs tightening up.

 

[HareBrain]

3) A number of things are explained or repeated unnecessarily. Children's books tend to explain things more, so as not to confuse the readers.

I agree with this being one reason it feels YA -- Becca's explanations to Pat, couched in terms a child would understand, feel (even if they're not) like they might actually be intended for the reader.

I also think TJ was right in that Becca's emotional reactions to Pat don't feel adult -- they lack complexity and she does come across as being very tolerant. Because Pat is childlike, I think you need to make Becca feel more adult.

 

[The Judge]

Don't worry about people here being confused or getting the wrong end of the stick because we don't know what's coming. That's inevitable -- I imagine everyone of us has experienced it. But don't forget that if a "real" reader is confused, then he/she might decide not to read on another 4 or 5 pages to be unconfused.

I share your horror of info-dumping and your desire to have slow reveals but I don't think you did info-dump, actually, so that's one worry out the way. But an odd comment eg immediately she gets the helmet out something like "That would be worth a silver mark. They'd be able to eat for the first time in 2 days." gets the stakes out into the open at once.

Anyway, your question about YA. I can't put a finger on a particular word or phrase, but throughout there's a lack of complexity -- both in the characters, ie lack of internal thought, conflict, and in the writing itself. Sentence structures are basic -- most of them start he/she/name verb, and only a few of them are of any length. The words you use are again not complex or difficult (though I admit to having a momentary problem with "rondel" which to me means a dagger, which didn't seem to fit with the image, so I had to think again before remembering it was a piece of armour, and a longer problem with "standard" which to me means a flag and still causes a bit of head-scratching).


While I think of it, something which everyone here finds very useful is critiquing other members' work -- for some reason it's easier to spot issues there, which you (ie one, not just you) can then use to shine a light on your own work.

 

[WriterJosh]

I agree with this being one reason it feels YA -- Becca's explanations to Pat, couched in terms a child would understand, feel (even if they're not) like they might actually be intended for the reader.

I also think TJ was right in that Becca's emotional reactions to Pat don't feel adult -- they lack complexity and she does come across as being very tolerant. Because Pat is childlike, I think you need to make Becca feel more adult.

You mean more so than her actual years, right? I get what you're saying; because Becca has more or less taken the "mother" role in Pat's life (though they do have a "guardian", who we'll see later isn't much of one) she should be acting more like an adult and less like the sixteen-year-old she is.

I think I'm gonna take the whole helmet discussion out. It was meant to establish that Pat is mentally a child, but I think it went overboard.

 

[WriterJosh]

Don't worry about people here being confused or getting the wrong end of the stick because we don't know what's coming. That's inevitable -- I imagine everyone of us has experienced it. But don't forget that if a "real" reader is confused, then he/she might decide not to read on another 4 or 5 pages to be unconfused.

I share your horror of info-dumping and your desire to have slow reveals but I don't think you did info-dump, actually, so that's one worry out the way. But an odd comment eg immediately she gets the helmet out something like "That would be worth a silver mark. They'd be able to eat for the first time in 2 days." gets the stakes out into the open at once.

Anyway, your question about YA. I can't put a finger on a particular word or phrase, but throughout there's a lack of complexity -- both in the characters, ie lack of internal thought, conflict, and in the writing itself. Sentence structures are basic -- most of them start he/she/name verb, and only a few of them are of any length. The words you use are again not complex or difficult (though I admit to having a momentary problem with "rondel" which to me means a dagger, which didn't seem to fit with the image, so I had to think again before remembering it was a piece of armour, and a longer problem with "standard" which to me means a flag and still causes a bit of head-scratching).


While I think of it, something which everyone here finds very useful is critiquing other members' work -- for some reason it's easier to spot issues there, which you (ie one, not just you) can then use to shine a light on your own work.

I did read the other piece that was submitted but I'm gonna read through it again before I start critiquing.

Also, a standard isn't necessarily a flag. It can be a figure head as well, like Caesar's eagle.

As for the simplistic language I'm not sure what to tell you. Yes, this opening section is a bit simple, some of which was intentional, because I tend to write in the voice of whatever character's point of view we're following. Maybe I shouldn't have posted this section. Then again, it is the first page, so...maybe I should put something else first.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

I think you could probably distill this piece down to a few paragraphs, get the essence across without the repetitions that have been mentioned, and get to your "big find" that much more quickly. Show that they have to sift through stuff like this helmet all the time before you drag up the big fish -- just don't take too much time with it. Use it to establish the setting, then you're on to bigger and better things.

Oh, and I have to be contrary in chrispy's direction and say that thing in the middle is not a comma splice -- I think he missed the "and".

 

[DaCosta]

I just wanted to chip in - You have a lovely varied style, by which I mean it was an interesting read and held my attention (and I had two kids screaming in the background). You've got talent, no doubt about it, but you're trying too hard.

I'm disappointed the helmet has no significance because that was the key interesting item in the piece. Definitely invoke more conflict/intrigue.

Well done for posting and getting such a great response from the team. I'm looking forward to reading more.

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

I'd generally agree with the comments made so far. It's of little use to say that we'd understand the story better if we read another 1500 words or so of it.
Readers, whether they are ordinary readers, or in the publishing trade, want to be reassured by the first few paragraphs that the story before them is "the real thing" and that reading the rest of it is going to be a worthwhile use of their time.

There are a number of negative signifiers in what you have presented:

Though this is the start of the story, you have found it necessary to explain the setting.
There is a lot of talk about how to excavate a helmet, which does not advance the story.
What's the story? Where's the threat? The tension?
There isn't much to indicate when and where this is, or what kind of world (except in your notes).

The chapter on Beginnings in Jeff Vandermeer's "Wonderbook" points out that the beginning of a story has to do quite a lot of work with an economical number of words to deliver at least some of the following:
A main character
A conflict or problem
An antagonist
A sense of action or motion
Some idea of the setting
A consistent tone and mood to the language

I'm not saying that your story is bad, but it needs to start delivering on the reader's expectations right from the first paragraph, not in the second 1500 words.

 

[WriterJosh]

Thanks again to everyone for the feedback. It has been valuable, and I'm going to start today to work on applying it starting today.

So, to recap, here's a few generally universal issues that most of you seemed to touch on:

-A lack of opening "hook" or reason to keep reading from the get-go
-No real feeling of conflict, tension or motivation
-Nothing suggesting a reason for why we're here, following these two
-Repeated redundancies that are needless and tell us stuff we already know
-Too much time spent on things that don't really advance the story
-Not enough of the right kind of description of setting and characters
-A feeling that this is meant for young adults, both in prose and dialogue

A few goals I have for the immediate future:

Focus less on the helmet and more on the fact that this plain was one of the fields of battle on the mortal plain during the war of the gods. That was my soul purpose for introducing the helmet; to talk about Ronan Gryphonhook and let the reader know that a great war left this plain a blasted heath.

Add in more of Becca's cynicism, sense of resignation (this is my life and it's as good as it's ever going to be), give her a more adult way of speaking and introduce her soon-to-be-legendary foul mouth a little earlier. Toward the end of the book another character comments on the amount of F-bombs she drops, but I didn't want to overdo it right away with that. Perhaps I was wrong, and in general, she talks like a kid when she should be more grown up, thanks to her circumstances.

I still am not sure in what way the prose seems "young adult". No, it's not florid, or overly descriptive, but that was on purpose. I guess I just don't know what the complaint is. The sentences are short? That's a sign it's for young adults now? The wording is simple? I'm describing simple actions. I didn't feel the need to make the prose complicated or poetic or make use of a ton of big words because really, this scene is pretty straight-forward. In fact, I was following advice other published writers (admittedly, not fantasy writers) have given in interviews or on websites about turning people off by needlessly complicating your prose and not going overboard on description.

I'd really like some more feedback on this issue, because I don't understand it. Yes, the dialogue, especially Pat's, is child-like, but mentally Pat is a child, and Becca is only sixteen. Yes, I'll be changing hers to sound like a young woman in her twenties, as she's had to grow up fast, but really, as far as the prose, I would like to know what, more specifically, made you think it's written on a young-adult level.

But anyway, that aside, I've got lots to work with and I'm going to start today. Anything I left out that you feel deserves my closer attention?

 

[DaCosta]

I've had the YA card thrown at me too, which came as quite a surprise.

Re: descriptions. I recently had some work edited by JJ and he stripped out a lot of the descriptions. Clarity and pace, are his key pieces of advice. A lot can be assumed by the reader. I think you did the right thing.

I struggle to define YA (but believe it stems from younger MC's?).

Sorry, i'm not much help, but I understand your confusion as I've felt the same.

 

[WriterJosh]

I've had the YA card thrown at me too, which came as quite a surprise.

Re: descriptions. I recently had some work edited by JJ and he stripped out a lot of the descriptions. Clarity and pace, are his key pieces of advice. A lot can be assumed by the reader. I think you did the right thing.

I struggle to define YA (but believe it stems from younger MC's?).

Sorry, i'm not much help, but I understand your confusion as I've felt the same.

I think descriptions are important, but not if you get bogged down in it. Leave something to the reader's imagination. One of the chief complaints about Robert Jordan was how he would go on and on describing rooms, clothing, etc. before he would move on with the story.

What I wanted primarily was for the opening to be "accessible", which I then undercut by not adding a hook or sense of tension. But you said it; clarity and pace are important.

I hope the younger MC's don't automatically contribute to the idea that it's YA. After all, George RR Martin has a number of younger MC's, but I don't think anyone has ever confused ASOIAF with young adult writing.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I think the dialogue is a particular YA flag. It all sounds thoroughly modern. There's absolutely no sense of place, context, social class, etc. It's written for how young people would speak these days.

No one is going to argue you should write olde worlde - but care with wording, to make it more neutral, can go a long way to helping create a more authentic character voice. I say that as someone who suffers from doing so as well.

Read A Game of Thrones again, and you will probably see your characters speak very differently to Sansa and Arya.

 

[WriterJosh]

I think the dialogue is a particular YA flag. It all sounds thoroughly modern. There's absolutely no sense of place, context, social class, etc. It's written for how young people would speak these days.

No one is going to argue you should write olde worlde - but care with wording, to make it more neutral, can go a long way to helping create a more authentic character voice. I say that as someone who suffers from doing so as well.

Read A Game of Thrones again, and you will probably see your characters speak very differently to Sansa and Arya.

It sounds like a cop-out, or excuse, or like I'm not taking the criticism, but the fact is that much of the contemporary sounding dialogue was intentional. I didn't realize it would make people think "young adult", though. And other characters with different stations in life don't speak the same way Becca and Pat do. I'm gonna have to strike that neutral balance you talked about. The tone I was going for was similar (though not a copy) to modern writers like Abercrombie or Richard Morgan, who write in a medieval type setting but include a lot of dialogue that wouldn't be out of place in this day and age.

But mainly I wanted to know what made the prose seem YA.

 

[Brian G Turner]

I know what you mean - there's a fine line between trying to balance modern and period with language to ensure it appeals to a modern reader.

A simple example with word choice is "okay" which I'd regard as fairly modern, and there's not a single instance in A Game of Thrones or Abercrombie's Best Served Cold that I can find (I use both as study templates, and can search through them on my desktop through the Kindle app).

However, there's no hard line between adult and young fiction - there is arguably quite a grey area.

 

[WriterJosh]

I know what you mean - there's a fine line between trying to balance modern and period with language to ensure it appeals to a modern reader.

A simple example with word choice is "okay" which I'd regard as fairly modern, and there's not a single instance in A Game of Thrones or Abercrombie's Best Served Cold that I can find (I use both as study templates, and can search through them on my desktop through the Kindle app).

However, there's no hard line between adult and young fiction - there is arguably quite a grey area.

I think what I'm gonna have to do is find a way to let the reader know right away that this is not for young readers merely because two of the characters are young-ish. The themes I examine are very adult concerns; the role of religion and rulers in our lives and being lied to by sources that are supposed to educate and inform us, for example. There's also quite a bit of adult content.

 

[DaCosta]

Your book cover, blurb, keywords (i.e. when uploading to amazon) will do a lot of the work for you. I wouldn't let the YA thing distract you.

 

[Hex]

Speaking as someone who does write YA: themes of being lied to by trusted authorities have been pretty big and popular recently; there's a lot of it in dystopian YA.

It didn't read to me as especially YA but perhaps the issue may be partly starting with a young-sounding voice and young characters, which may suggest YA to people? The little GRRM I've read seemed to start with older characters (and then kill them, but still).

 

[WriterJosh]

Your book cover, blurb, keywords (i.e. when uploading to amazon) will do a lot of the work for you. I wouldn't let the YA thing distract you.

Thanks for saying that because that one threw me. The rest of the issues I can see.

 

[The Judge]

I bow to Hex's far superior knowedge of YA, since I read very little of it, but I have to take minor issue with this

... perhaps the issue may be partly starting with a young-sounding voice and young characters, which may suggest YA to people?

(My bolding)

In fact there's nothing in that extract to tell us the characters are young, and I had no idea Becca was only 16. Even reading back over it with that knowledge, she sounds nothing like a youngish teenager to my mind, and certainly not a modern one. In fact, I'd expect a teenager to do a whole lot more angsting and why-me?-ing, simply because she wouldn't usually have sufficient maturity to act as a surrogate mother to a disabled man. As to which, I could see Pat had learning disabilities which made him child-like in many ways, but again there was nothing there to suggest he was a teenager -- I had him pegged as something like an 8 year old in a 28 year old body -- and his manner of talking and acting alone wouldn't have suggested YA to me, quite the reverse.

As I said before, I think part of the problem -- if indeed it is a problem, which is another matter, of course -- is the lack of complexity of thought/emotion. It may be that if that is addressed and the other issues fixed, the possible YA feel may disappear.

The wording is simple? I'm describing simple actions. I didn't feel the need to make the prose complicated or poetic or make use of a ton of big words because really, this scene is pretty straight-forward.

I wonder if perhaps you're setting up a straw man here. No one suggested making the prose complicated or poetic, or that you should use arcane or multi-syllable words, and of course there's a place for very plain direct and unadorned writing, especially in action sequences. But this isn't an either/or situation. No one is trying to make you write like Oscar Wilde, but it's perfectly possible to write good intelligent, but perhaps more adult, prose without resorting to baroque embellishment -- after all, that's what you've been doing in all these posts. It may be, as you say, that when writing your other characters you do this -- in which case I'd suggest you tilt this scene towards those a little more. (NB I don't know about anyone else, but I'd certainly be interested in seeing a snippet** from one of those other characters.)


** with my mod's hat on -- if you do put up another scene, that would go in a new thread. But if you wanted to post an amended version of this first scene, that can come into this thread or in a new one, whichever you preferred. (The 1500 word limit for the new or amended scene is the same, of course.)