publishing question: On Magical metals.

[Rider of scaled wing]

There are many, from mythology, and from popular fictions and videogames, but while many have been widely public domain for a very long time, one in particular, while widely used, traces it's roots directly back to Tolkien: Mithril. Its been purposefully misspelled many a time (Mythril, mithral, etc.) and pops up in all sorts of videogames. but, while i can't seem to find any information on it being copyrighted online, i've noticed a distinct lack of it in most fantasy fiction i've read over the years.

With that established, here's the actual question: What do publishers think of stories that make use of paralells of tolkien's 'grey silver' magic metal: indifferent, or 'wouldn't touch this with a 40 foot pole'?

 

[Brian G Turner]

I'm not sure what publishers think, but as a reader I would want to know why the writer was unable to invent a terminology for themselves and instead was mining another writer for artifacts.

 

[The Judge]

Not being a publisher myself, I don't know what they'd think. I know what I'd think as a reader, though...

Provided you don't actually call it mithril or any ******* variant, I doubt anyone will worry overmuch. But why not create your own magic metal with its own properties, rather than rip off someone else's?


EDIT: I wasn't actually using telepathy to pick Brian's brain as I wrote the above, it just looks like it.

 

[Boneman]

When I played World of Warcraft, you could make Mithril Armour when you had sufficient skill... sold well, too. Although it's a construct, and doesn't actually exist (yet!) is it any different from using iron, steel, copper? The answer is: of course it is - they're real. Should be easy to meld your own word around some of those real words: I recall plasteel, but can't remember where, but if you want a magical metal, bring in some metaphysical constructs, maybe?

 

[Mirannan]

How about this for an idea - use some of the names for alchemical materials? I'm afraid that the only reference I ever had for this sort of thing was the old RPG Chivalry and Sorcery, but some of the (mythical in the real world, but up to you in yours) names for alchemical materials were quite cool. Waters of the Wise, for example. For the good old mithril, perhaps Star of Silver might serve? This material was, if memory serves, the alchemical ideal of silver.

Also IIRC, the various "star of" metals were supposed to be the source of the various legends about metals. Star of silver killed shapeshifters, star of iron was effective against devils, that sort of thing.

I keep meaning to try and track down a copy of those old rules (I mean OLD, 30 years or more) but unfortunately I couldn't afford to pay for it. Might be a useful idea mine.

And BTW, I have no idea how authentic this game version of alchemy was compared to historical sources.

 

[Rider of scaled wing]

Oh there are plenty of other classic mythical metals that nobody would think twice about using. like Orichalcum (Ancient greek mythical super metal, from the atlantis legends). It's just mythril has kind of become the ruler by which all other mythical metals are measured against. one step above steel, but perhaps lower than other, more extreme materials, and EVERYONE seems to use it in videogames.

At least, i feel that way.

 

[Chel]

mining another writer for artifacts.

Nice one, Brian!

Boneman, Plasteel is at least from Star Wars, but I'd imagine it can be in a lot of places. I imagine it as some sort of mix between plastic and steel, as the name would suggest.

As to the original question, well... I'm not a publisher, but as a reader, I think if a modern author used the word mithril or a variation of it, I'd be a bit disappointed. There would have to be a very, very good reason for it.
I'm not saying I would stop reading the book if there wasn't, but if I didn't otherwise find the book to my liking it would certainly not help me like it more.

 

[David Evil Overlord]

Just Googled to confirm my memory...plasteel was in Dune...and a few other places...but Dune first...

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Plasteel may refer to:

Plasteel, composite of fiberglass and steel patented by automobile manufacturer Gurgel and first used in 1973

Plasteel (Dune), a durable tough form of steel mentioned by Frank Herbert in his 1965 science fiction novel Dune and its sequels

Plasteel (Star Wars), steel-reinforced plastic substance referenced in many works of the Star Wars media franchise which began with the 1977 film of the same name

Plasteel (Warhammer 40,0000), a substance similar to the above.

 

[Aleph]

There's historical variations that pre-date Tolkien by err, thousands of years. He appropriated them as he saw fit.

Generally a lot of "magical metal" legends are thought to have come from Bronze Age cultures coming up against the first users of iron - a far superior metal than bronze for weaponry, but needing an advanced technology to make. The old trope of fae/elves being harmed by iron, or iron being impervious to magic, really come from the times when the old Neolithic tribes were being pitted up against populations who had access to this new technology.

 

[Mirannan]

There's even some justification for some of the properties of "magic metals" in fantasy stories. There are a fair number of alloys of the bottom row of the periodic table, with some rather impressive properties. They are all fantastically expensive, because such elements are rare - but the alloys are very impressive and many of them look as one might imagine mithril does - although they are a lot denser.

 

[Rider of scaled wing]

I suppose the general concensus is: Steer clear of mythril, and try to make your own magic metals.

I suppose it's for the best. i do enjoy the challenge of worldbuilding. this is just another piece i need to work on.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

No concensus here I'm afraid. Why steer clear? Mithril is fairly much accepted as part of the trope. If we shouldn't use it should we also not use elves? There comes a point where you're just making up things that you don't need to and probably confusing your readers.

If your readers understand what mithril is, why give them a new metal and screeds of information that they don't want about it if it doesn't add to the story?

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Astner]

Mithril is public domain, it's a name that's neither trademarked nor a title.

 

[Septembre]

I dare say that more than a few people may be mistaken as to whether they would be actually disappointed to see the element Mithril mentioned. Precisely because of its bountiful presence in the fantasiverse, we would make a connection with it quicker than you could break down and explain it. Some elements of fiction become prolific like vampires, dragons, the holy grail, and sodium pentathol (truth serum)...they earn their place in the vernacular. And like Astner said, it's public domain. I, for one, would not be disappointed. I like that a fictional element can have a presence so strong that it crosses over. It's almost spiritual in that respect.

 

[jastius]

mithril was tolkien's word to use instead of the old term adamanite or adamant. this is the old achemical term for the hardest substance there is. it was thought then to be a metal.. non magnetic in nature. another name for it is adamantium (and whose claws and skeleton are we thinking of?) but anyways that name is still up for grabs..
here is the wiki link..
Adamant - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Mirannan]

Jastius - Sure. And now, just to confuse matters, one of the magical universes has both - and the attributes of lightness and hardness have been separated.

D&D has mithril (looks like silver, light, doesn't corrode) and adamantite (probably black, no lighter than ordinary steel but can't be damaged by anything except itself).

In the end it's up to you. If writing fantasy I wouldn't be using either - I'd think of some other marvellous property for my magical materials - but that's just me.

 

[Colbey Frost]

I think it's cliche, just like elves, but it's what you do with it that counts. Didn't Tolkien get most of his stuff from mythology? I give things place holder names all the time, so for now you could leave it, but when you're re-writing, you can add depth and even your own names. By the end of your book, the thnigs you've taken from the public domain might be different from their trope connection and warrant some extra attention from yourself in terms of being 'original'.

 

[Bob Whitely]

When I write stories and design games, I hold to a philosophy that we want to avoid the extremes. If we are too familiar, we won't stand out, so why would anyone turn away from what they are already reading (or playing in the case of games), and why would they appreciate our work? And if we are too obscure, we also risk driving people away as our work becomes hard to identify with — too obscure. That's a bad thing.

Therefore we walk a narrow path where we want to present fresh concepts, but not different just for the sake of being different, nor so different, that people have a hard time getting into it.

So, I have no problem with mithril, or mythril or whatever in my stories, or adamantium/adamantine/adamantite or whatever, but I tend to then twist them, make them at least a little different, and also provide wholly new concepts. So, the result is, you get people that can identify with your work, but also come to appreciate how you take it in new, coherent and understandable directions.

Being unique really isn't that hard. Mithcheesium - Coating silver with cheese and then applying a special, alchemical substance and then upon heating it, the amalgam is transformed it into a silvery, uber-strong metal that smells like feta. Dumb, I know. Anyone can come up with a fake metal.

Being innovative and obscure isn't automatically a good thing. For example, Avatar's "Unobtainium":Original, but dumb name. People really enjoy identifying with something, so no, I have zero problem with mithril, but if we use a classical concept, let's take it for a spin and do something cool with it, not just rehash what's been done!

 

[David Evil Overlord]

Bob, unobtainium has been used for many years in both science fiction and engineering. It's supposed to be a material better than anything we can make now. So it could be used to describe Larry Niven's Ringworld building material...we could build a Ringworld, if only we could make the "scrith" it's made out of. Since we can't make that building material, the building material is "unobtainium".

 

[Mirannan]

Tolkein's other name for mithril was "truesilver". I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover that "mithril" translates into that in some obscure language, or one of his made-up ones (probably Quenya or Sindarin) which is close to it.

It's well known that Finnish and Old Norse are major linguistic sources for Tolkein's work, but there are also Hebrew influences - so which language it might be is rather unpredictable!