Honor Harrington - whats the big deal?

[Parson]

Well, you knew the Parson would have to find this thread eventually. I'm not sure how I've missed it thus far. But it's likely because the season of the year is really starting to pick up. ---- Enough excuses!!! But where do I get the reputation for being someone who flies off the handle. The only time I really lost it was with the infamous Weber Vampire book, which I refuse to name again.

Why do I like the Honor Harrington series so much. Let me innumerate.

1. I love my heroes to be worthy. I expect them to struggle and sometimes make mistakes, but to make them honestly and then do whatever is necessary to correct them. "Honor of the Queen."

2. I really like books that build to a climax, but I want that climax to be something more than a wamb, bam, thank you mam. Weber is one of the very best at building (sometimes interminably building) to a climax, but then it's usually wow! "On Basilisk Station."

3. I like it when people who act with honor no matter the cost are recognized and respected because of it. Everyone of the Honor Harrington series books do this.

4. I am gratified when religion and religious people are treated as people who can be intelligent and respectable. The books where Grayson is significant. -- A very large part of the Safehold series.

5. I love interesting villains who are clearly wrong but whose logic is understandable. Enter Rob S. Pierre.

6. I am intrigued by the science behind the thinking. Weber is infamous for his "info dumps" but I am often working right there with him sometimes with my calculator to figure the vectors, etc.

7. I hate books whose world is comprehensibly weird. Weber's worlds are understandable and ring true to me.

8. I also appreciate the political finaglings that can so often frustrate the way things should be done. Both the heroes and villains nations suffer from this.

There are more things I like about Weber's work but those 8 will do for a start. Now if you don't like those kinds of things you very likely will not like Weber, and I'll suspect you have no taste.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

I knew the title of this thread was Parson-bait.

Yeah, all that stuff he said! I never can articulate all of that, when pressed for an answer to this question. I should print out Parson's answers.

The worlds are real, the people on both sides (all sides) have depth and logical (to them) reasons for what they are doing, the political intrigue works back and forth on itself in layers.

 

[Musky]

I'm reading "On Basilisk Station" right now. It's only my second Weber book, the first being "The vampire book," which was horrible. I'm enjoying this one. I wanted to buy it for my reader for some time, and never understood why it and the next in the series weren't offered digitally. That was solved by this thread, and I've downloaded both from Baen books for free. Pretty cool, and it's like to lead to some purchases down the road a bit.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Yes, Baen is smart that way!

Thank goodness, once more, that I have never even SEEN the "vampire book". (I am, I think, unfortunately, a couple of books behind in the Honor series despite being a rabid fan. I'm also at least one book behind in the Vorkosigans, despite being an even more rabid fan of those. Sigh.)

 

[Bick]

I think Alchemist hit the nail on the head for me with the first response to the OP question. I agree that they can seem to take a while to build and the first half of OBS didn't knock my socks off. However, the final 'chase-in-space' battle is absolutely tremendous. Some of the most exciting writing I have ever read. Genuinely 'unputdownable' if you'll excuse the hackneyed phrase. Parson's enthusiasm for the series was so catching, I felt I couldn't avoid HH any longer and I've now read the first two. I look forward to reading more in due course.

 

[Pyan]

I'm with the Parson as well, especially his points 1, 5 & 8.

I'd never read a David Weber in my life, and I'd been veering heavily to the fantasy side of SFF for quite a while. I stumbled upon the "War God" series by him, and after I'd caught up to date with that series, I realised how enjoyable his writing was - not profound, or earth-shattering or particularly innovative, but just what I wanted to escape into a believable alternative. I was aware of the HH series, of course, as anyone who enjoys SFF must be, but I'd never read any - and "On Basilisk Station" and "The Honor of the Queen" were both free on Kindle - so off I blithely went...

A month later, I'm up to "At All Costs", and still enjoying every infodumping, politicking, honest minute of reading the series. And when I'm up to date with HH, I've got the Worlds of Honor and Star Kingdom series to fill in the gaps...

Hornblower with spaceships. I'd rather read the original.

You've read both, HE? Or just quoting the commonest put-down line? I read and have reread all the C.S. Forester books many times, and can quote bits of them from memory - but my view is that whereas Weber may have been inspired by the character of Forester's HH, Weber's HH has achieved a life and depth far beyond such a throwaway comment.

 

[Moggle]

ditto

The second book is about as good as the series gets. It kind of goes down hill after Flag in Exile, or maybe it just gets boring with trivial variations of the same old same old.

Of course fans aren't objective.

psik

People always say this, but I found Honor of the Queen too derivative of the first book.

 

[Timba]

Well, you knew the Parson would have to find this thread eventually. I'm not sure how I've missed it thus far. But it's likely because the season of the year is really starting to pick up. ---- Enough excuses!!! But where do I get the reputation for being someone who flies off the handle. The only time I really lost it was with the infamous Weber Vampire book, which I refuse to name again.

Why do I like the Honor Harrington series so much. Let me innumerate.

1. I love my heroes to be worthy. I expect them to struggle and sometimes make mistakes, but to make them honestly and then do whatever is necessary to correct them. "Honor of the Queen."

2. I really like books that build to a climax, but I want that climax to be something more than a wamb, bam, thank you mam. Weber is one of the very best at building (sometimes interminably building) to a climax, but then it's usually wow! "On Basilisk Station."

3. I like it when people who act with honor no matter the cost are recognized and respected because of it. Everyone of the Honor Harrington series books do this.

4. I am gratified when religion and religious people are treated as people who can be intelligent and respectable. The books where Grayson is significant. -- A very large part of the Safehold series.

5. I love interesting villains who are clearly wrong but whose logic is understandable. Enter Rob S. Pierre.

6. I am intrigued by the science behind the thinking. Weber is infamous for his "info dumps" but I am often working right there with him sometimes with my calculator to figure the vectors, etc.

7. I hate books whose world is comprehensibly weird. Weber's worlds are understandable and ring true to me.

8. I also appreciate the political finaglings that can so often frustrate the way things should be done. Both the heroes and villains nations suffer from this.

There are more things I like about Weber's work but those 8 will do for a start. Now if you don't like those kinds of things you very likely will not like Weber, and I'll suspect you have no taste.

Nicely done Parson! I concur wholeheartedly.

 

[ralphkern]

I just don't get where our boy Weber has the time to write so many books. Hes's the definition of prolific. And not those little novellas either, big meaty jobs that clearly have a lot of research pumped into them. A quick wiki search shows four in 2012 alone.

Not that i'm knocking it...

 

[Montero]

Parson - interesting points on morality - would agree with you in general on that. Question - how do you rate Elizabeth Moon's books regarding morality?

I notice that Vertigo (with whom I have previously had brisk discussions regarding Bujold and Huff and the like - so lets not do it again ) is rating HH above Bujold and Huff. I personally put it the other way around (by a fat margin).

So if you've tried a couple of HH books, not entirely happy with them, not yet tried Bujold or Huff - I'd go try those next. Bear in mind that Bujold is not "pure" military sf - the Vorkosigan series has all sorts in it - romance, romantic comedy, murder mystery and thriller as well as more conventional military action. Thought that being said - half of what Miles gets up to is really more covert action than ship action.

 

[Nerds_feather]

4. I am gratified when religion and religious people are treated as people who can be intelligent and respectable. The books where Grayson is significant. -- A very large part of the Safehold series.

5. I love interesting villains who are clearly wrong but whose logic is understandable. Enter Rob S. Pierre.

These are big things for me too. Unfortunately...

6. I am intrigued by the science behind the thinking. Weber is infamous for his "info dumps" but I am often working right there with him sometimes with my calculator to figure the vectors, etc.

...infodumping drives me nuts!

 

[Parson]

Parson - interesting points on morality - would agree with you in general on that. Question - how do you rate Elizabeth Moon's books regarding morality?

I notice that Vertigo (with whom I have previously had brisk discussions regarding Bujold and Huff and the like - so lets not do it again ) is rating HH above Bujold and Huff. I personally put it the other way around (by a fat margin).

So if you've tried a couple of HH books, not entirely happy with them, not yet tried Bujold or Huff - I'd go try those next. Bear in mind that Bujold is not "pure" military sf - the Vorkosigan series has all sorts in it - romance, romantic comedy, murder mystery and thriller as well as more conventional military action. Thought that being said - half of what Miles gets up to is really more covert action than ship action.

(Grrr! My lengthy reply was just deleted by me when I accidently closed this tab!!!!)

Ok, the shorthand version. I really didn't have time the first time around.

I have read Bujold and Hoff (or more precisely some of their stuff). I do not care for either of them as much as the Honor Harrington series. Bujold really had me with Falling Free, Shards of Honor, and Barayaar. But things like the Vor Game etc. left me cold. I just can't buy Miles!

I have read Tanya Huff's Valor series. I now notice I haven't read the newest of these, but it doesn't motivate me to go and buy it immediately like a new Honor Harrington book would. I haven't read any of Huff's fantasy stuff.

*Obviously you haven't followed David Weber's sub-forum. I am one of, if not the biggest, Weber fan here. I only hated his not to cursed enough "Vampire Book." --- I'm still not naming it.

 

[Vertigo]

He he I can't resist!

Don't get me wrong Montero I do enjoy Bujold and Huff (Bujold more so, in fact I shall probably be moving onto my next Vorkosigan book sometime soon) and would almost certainly recommend them (with some reservations maybe) to anyone who enjoys Weber. In fact I do think a couple of Bujold's Vorkosigan books are right up there. But ultimately you are right I do rate Weber above them. At least his HH and Safehold books; I have read others of his (usually collaborations) that I've been very unimpressed with.

Incidentally Parson, from the books of Bujold you've read and liked, I'd recommend giving Ethan of Athos a read. Very different and, although set in the same world, I don't think Miles appears in it at all. It is a very sensitive and sympathetic look at what is essentially institutionalised homosexuality. However it is more of a spy style thriller rather than military. Possibly one of my favourite of hers.

 

[psikeyhackr]

But things like the Vor Game etc. left me cold. I just can't buy Miles!

Honor Harrington is more buyable than Miles?

Bujold makes a more interesting collection of characters for me. Weber's other characters are too hidden in Honor's glare. But I like both series enough. I have bought enough books. LOL

psik

 

[ralphkern]

Ill have to give bujold a try.

I don't think every character is overshadowed by Harrington, it's just all the interesting ones are on the peeps side. Theisman, Tourville, Foraker and Cachet are, to my mind, the most fascinating. Not least as the first two have handed Harrington her backside more than once, fighting against not only superior technology and matching opponent but dealing with their own rubbish government too.

 

[Parson]

Honor Harrington is more buyable than Miles?

Bujold makes a more interesting collection of characters for me. Weber's other characters are too hidden in Honor's glare. But I like both series enough. I have bought enough books. LOL

psik

Hm... Well I guess there are some similarities. Neither would exist without some seriously advanced medicine. Both have punched far above what would be considered their weight. (But I would say Honor far more than Miles here. His limitations are mainly physical, his political connections by birth are very rarified; while Honor's has the benefit of being a "genie" with solid but pedestrian parents. (However one of the last Honorverse offerings makes this generalization a little suspect.)

On the whole it comes down to my taste I guess. I guess I identify strongly with Honor standing for what's right and working within the system with all of its flaws and strengths, then with Miles working outside the system because of its prejudices.

 

[psikeyhackr]

On the whole it comes down to my taste I guess. I guess I identify strongly with Honor standing for what's right and working within the system with all of its flaws and strengths, then with Miles working outside the system because of its prejudices.

Bujold's social criticism is more subtle than Weber's. Sometimes his is like hitting you in the head with a sledge hammer.

One of the funniest of Bujold's is where Aral, Piotr and Cordelia are having breakfast and they hear about Kou and Bothari being attacked. Piotr and Cordelia go at each other. That was very funny. But it comes across as social interaction not David Weber giving a lecture.

Bujold's entire atmosphere is just more interesting than Weber's constant war. It is not just about the lead character. Miles wasn't even on the scene yet in Barrayar.

psik

 

[Montero]

*Obviously you haven't followed David Weber's sub-forum. I am one of, if not the biggest, Weber fan here. I only hated his not to cursed enough "Vampire Book." --- I'm still not naming it.

Not me on the vampire book (What vampire book ? )

What do you think of Elizabeth Moon by the way? If you've not read them you might enjoy the Paksenarion fantasy series, not sure. (Have read a couple of her sf and can't especially comment on the morality side of it.)

Huff's fantasies - The Keeper series (which stopped at three), The Enchantment Emporium series, her vampire series and her earliest one - the Quarters series.

The first two are contemporary Canada plus magic, the Quarters is more classic fantasy.

Quarters is good, but I particularly love the Keeper series for various guffaw moments and the snarky back chat (from several cats and a hell mouth).

******

Regarding Bujold - interesting summary Parson, yes that encapsulates the differences.
Psik - your summary chimes with why I like Bujold - that scene is one I can remember, but it hadn't struck me in the way it has you until you mentioned it - a new insight for me . There is also a scene (don't think it is the same one) when Cordelia logically points out that without gene testing you don't really know who your ancestors are. The clash points between cultures are very well done throughout the series. (I like the one where she tests the sword stick btw - not a clash scene but a similarity between human cultures.)

 

[Timba]

I love Moon, Bujold and Weber and I cannot really say I prefer one to another. In each case with a new book from any of them I immediately feel I have stepped back into a comfortable setting I already know, I suppose it is the cast of characters that gives me this impression.

I do not think I anticipate a new book from any one of them more than the others but I will say that Weber feeds my need on a much more regular basis than do the other two.

 

[psikeyhackr]

There is also a scene (don't think it is the same one) when Cordelia logically points out that without gene testing you don't really know who your ancestors are. The clash points between cultures are very well done throughout the series. (I like the one where she tests the sword stick btw - not a clash scene but a similarity between human cultures.)

That was the breakfast scene. Aral told Cordelia that she couldn't go around accusing Vors of being bastards, but you know he is really laughing as the same time.

The sword purchase scene was a combination of sexist and class conflict. Cordelia was higher class than the clerk, but she was "just a woman" in a store for REAL MEN.

That is what is cool about Bujold. The social commentary is merged into the story so well and the story is so good I don't even notice it on the first read. Most of her stories I have probably read three times and that is unusual for me. I have tried reading Neuromancer a second time and couldn't do it. Never made it through 1984 a first time and have tried more than once because it is a "Classic".

psik