Misogyny and chauvanism in GOT

I was being tongue in cheek about Jaime :) (mostly ;))

The torture one is an interesting one. I have written stuff which deals with such stuff, but the only characters we see in that position are the males (although it's made clear at least one female has been subjected to it) and I've often mused how much that was story driven, or how much it was me wimping back from it. Is torture our default the worst that can happen for blokes as rape is for females?

Just a'wondering. :)
 
Springs, surely rape could be part of torture? [And, of course, it can happen to men as well].
 
I was being tongue in cheek about Jaime :) (mostly ;))

The torture one is an interesting one. I have written stuff which deals with such stuff, but the only characters we see in that position are the males (although it's made clear at least one female has been subjected to it) and I've often mused how much that was story driven, or how much it was me wimping back from it. Is torture our default the worst that can happen for blokes as rape is for females?

Just a'wondering. :)

I think you raise a very interesting question there. It would be fascinating to see the reaction from people if, say, most of the rapes had been inflicted upon men, if most of the nudity had been male, but Theon had been made a female and tourtured and mutilated in the same manner. Would it still draw the same accusations of misogyny?

I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, or to try and belittle or minimise any criticism of the show. Like yourself, I'm genuinely curious as to how the readership and viewership would react to that.

Springs, surely rape could be part of torture? [And, of course, it can happen to men as well].
I remember researching the Roman Legions for a book, and reading from a number of accounts that male rape was common enough in the Roman Legion for new recruits to be warned of how to act to avoid it, and once case of a young officer being pardoned for killing an older officer when that older officer tried to rape him. As to whether it was AS common as female rape, I don't know, but it certainly seems to be more common in cultures ancient and modern that we seem to think in general culture. It's certainly not something I recall encountering in many fictional depictions of the Roman army, and I've read quite a few.
 
Springs, surely rape could be part of torture? [And, of course, it can happen to men as well].

Absolutely, it can be. And indeed, I've written extensively on the rape thread about some of the stuff I've written about and why, and that includes male rape as part of torture. What I meant was - when we look to put a female under pressure do we go too easily to rape, and for a male do we do the same for torture? And if so, crucially, why?

Coolhand, just saw your response - yes, I think that's the interesting question and one I don't have an easy answer for.
 
I think that would be an excellent solution to any perceived inequality when it comes to the onscreen nudity in GOT. If we can show the insides of a man's body being splattered around in exquisite detail, it seems only fair to show the outside as well. I do sympathise greatly with female actors who complain that they're expected to get their kit off for the love scenes and bare all, but their male counterpart in a scene will always be covered to some degree. Personally, I think if a TV show is shown to an adult audience, and makes the artistic choice to depict sex realistically, then it's only fair the pendulum (ahem) swings (oh err) both ways (don'tcha know). It's a lot easier to defend that choice from an artistic point of view.


I have no problem with that.
 
I think the equality in nudity will come around eventually, but it will take a long time. But how we view the sexes is not the same as we're not the same, I stick to what I said I don't what Theon went through would have been allowed that been say Danerys, there would have been uproar.

I think springs is on to something we probably judge torture too far on a woman, but not for a man, and rape we're 'ok 'with, even if we don't really want to watch it, on a woman.

I think we're adults it's an 18 certificate, you are warned in advance of the content, the show is phenomenon so there's no reason not to understand that it's brutal. It is dark and it does show the worst of human behavior.

I think the reason the show is so good is because there's no real good guys and bad guys, that you therefore can't predict what is coming and probably a lack of humanity is part of the price of that. There's no 'here's something awful' now here's a 'something nice' to make you feel better.
 
There are arguments made up down and sideways about why it's "acceptable" or why it's not, etc. Does the blatant misogyny bother me? Of course it does. Was it rampant back in the Medieval era? There's no one alive who can say with certainty.

What we can say, and by we I mean myself and hundreds of feminist bloggers, is that we live in, currently, now, a "rape culture."

It's unfortunate for reasons beyond enumerating, (and believe me, all of those reasons are more than numerated on blogs, just google it) but it's a sad fact of life.

Because we live in a rape culture, it desensitizes a large majority of the populace to the wrongs and evils of misogyny and rape. It is rape culture that makes HBO's super rapey and exploitative misogynistic presentation of GoT "okay" to a lot of folks.

It's those of us who don't adhere to rape culture, who actively stand against it in whatever meaningful way we can, that make up the very vocal (but sadly) minority of people that say misogyny is wrong, rape is abhorrent and we should be morally outraged and horrified about it, regardless of era/fictional setting/reality/etc.

The thing is, rape culture also exists in the fantasy setting of GoT. Westeros and reality are actually somewhat similar when comparing them side by side.

There are men in both GoT and reality that value women as equals, even if those "equals" being measured aren't blanketed across the gender. In GoT, Ned treats Catelyn as his equal. From everything we've gathered of Ned (primarily in the books), he treated his sister as an equal. More importantly, he treats Cersei as an equal. (He was morally outraged when Robert backhanded Cersei, and upon next seeing Cersei, asked her if she was alright, whether Robert had hit her before, and flat out stated that Robert should never have done it.) As far as he was concerned, Cersei was kind of the devil, but that was based solely on her own actions as a person, and despite his personal feelings toward her as a person, he never demeaned her or thought less of her because she was a woman.

There are men in both GoT and reality that treat women as though they exist solely for the pleasure of men, that they are entitled to the "hot chick they want to bang." This is evidenced in GoT with Theon Greyjoy, especially in the HBO series. He frequents whores and treats them as whores. He shows little regard to the captain's daughter's honor/virtue while banging her up, down and sideways, even when the girl begs him to take her as a 'salt wife' because her father will beat her up, down and sideways because she gave her virtue to Theon, who has no value of women. Most importantly, treats Asha/Yara (his sister, posing as a fisherman's wife) as a common whore that can be bought with the "chance to tell her grandchildren about her wild night with the Lord of Pyke." This is also evidenced in reality by men like Elliot Rodgers, who frequented forums lamenting about being "involuntarily celibate (incel)" because despite his wealth, he couldn't "get chicks."

There is also the interesting paradox of chivalry and chauvinism. Chauvinism is the concept that women are inferior to men and thus aren't capable of doing things for themselves. It is not a hatred of women the way misogyny is, but it is looking down on women as being inferior to men. Chivalry ties into chauvinism because men desire to "protect" women, which, despite intention, implies that said women are incapable of protecting themselves.

Why do men carry their brides over the thresholds of the door to their home? Because superstition said that you could only enter the home with the right foot crossing the threshold first, and women just couldn't be tasked with such an enormous responsibility as remembering which foot to enter the house first on. You know, because Right or Left is such a hard thing to remember, let alone the fact that we're talking about superstition here.

In GoT, let's look at Jorah. You could make the argument that he is protecting his queen, and sure, he is, BUT... Jorah has this really bad habit of talking down to Dany. It goes from initially coaching her (as Khaleesi) to adapt in the Dothraki, a dynamic in which he is a mentor to a student (and which she treats as such), but as things progress, he becomes less formal with her (and don't quote his "but he's falling in love with her" to me) and starts outright talking down to her. "You don't understand this, and you don't understand that, and etc. etc. etc." Dany might say "I'm only a young girl and know little of the ways of war," but that's an act. She knows, and more importantly understands, exactly what's going on, it's just that playing dumb, she's able to disarm enemies. In many ways, this makes her far superior to the guy that keeps mansplaining to her how she doesn't get it. And any real, modern day woman can tell you she's been mansplained to before.

Am I excusing HBO for it's blatant and violent misogyny and chauvinism? Absolutely not. I'm simply saying that it's all a part of the larger issue.

/Rant
 
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I don't believe we live in a rape culture. Most people in modern Society do not believe it is ok to rape someone, and are disgusted by it. It seems that for example in parts of India, as so much occurs, some groups do have that type of culture but even there is now lots of protests about it.

You put in a good example of how Dany is actually shown as an intelligent character, and there are several in the show. As has been said many of the male characters also suffer horribly, more so in some cases like Theon.

As for HBO adding more nudity than is explained in the books, yes, sex sells. Arguably that is a flaw in human society but it is based on human nature. e.g. Spartacus will have gained a lot of viewers from that show's sexual style though that also had scantily (even nude) musclebound male characters too. All sorts of advertising is done with beauty or sex-appeal as a key seller.

Of course the show could have taken a different route and gone the LOTR film route and increased the importance of the female roles compared to in the books, but they are a very different type of story.
 
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