Point of View switches.

[barrett1987]

When writing a chapter how do you switch point of view to a second character smoothly. Any advice or tips on this skill?

 

[Hex]

I'm reading Shadowmancer by GP Taylor just now and he does it all the time. He starts a new paragraph and normally names the new POV person in the first sentence.

It's not confusing, that way.

 

[Abernovo]

I tend to write whole chapters in one PoV, but so long as you put in a line break (centred hash sign), and make the change immediately obvious, you should be fine.

#​

Oh, Hex got in first!

 

[barrett1987]

So it's ok to do it? Like its not a writing nono like adverbs?

 

[Abernovo]

You can use adverbs too.
Just be careful with them, and PoV changes, and adjectives, and all the other things people warn you about. There's no strict rule to say "thou shalt not..., not ever, on pain of death and your manuscript being cast to the fiery pits of Hell." It's all about how you do it.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

You can do it, but

It's generally harder to get the hang of and if it's done clumsily then it can become confusing to the reader. (Which is when it becomes 'head-hopping.')

It's also harder to sell a fantasy book in it as the market prefers close pov with, like Aber says, a clear break between povs.

I found it really hard at first to write in a single pov, now I find it hard to imagine a scene hopping around everyone so can't advise how to make it work. Good luck with it!

 

[Ursa major]

It's fine having a different PoV character for successive scenes. (Doing it within scenes is known as head-hopping (unless your PoV character really can read minds, and I think you'd want to let the reader know that this was happening).)

And as with any other scene changes, a blank line between the scenes is enough (though you may wish to add a # character to that blank line, just in case it appears as the first or last line on a page).

 

[Jo Zebedee]

It's fine having a different PoV character for successive scenes. (Doing it within scenes is known as head-hopping (unless your PoV character really can read minds, and I think you'd want to let the reader know that this was happening).).

I don't think this is strictly true - books in other genres do it all the time. Close POV can be for one line, a paragraph or a chapter... It's only if you do it and it stands out as clumsy that it's head-hopping.

 

[Ursa major]

It's true that if there is head-hopping but no-one notices it, no-one will be calling it head-hopping (by definition). But that doesn't mean it isn't. And when I see head-hopping, I don't care in which genre it appears (even if the book was written some time ago, though in these cases I can hardly blame an author for doing what everyone was doing back then).

I suppose, by definition, a truly** omniscient PoV would be able to reveal the thoughts of every character, but I don't recall many books where this is done. And if an otherwise close PoV narration simply dips into other characters' thoughts as and when it's convenient for the author, I see this as, at best, sloppy and lazy****.


** - By which, to me, means that the reader expects the narrator to know everything. But if the "narrator" perpetually sits on the shoulder of the PoV character(s), I feel cheated*** when I get to know other characters' thoughts in that scene (because it at least implies a close PoV, not an omniscient one).

*** - Although I give writers of comic novels a bit more leeway if there's no other way of delivering a joke to the reader (i.e. me), which is one of the purposes of the novel.

**** - "Close POV can be for one line, a paragraph or a chapter". The first two are not really for me, thank you, as that sounds like permission for a complete jumble of different PoVs and depths of PoV. Yes, you can safely top and/or tail a close PoV scene with 3rd person omniscient, but jumping in and out of a close PoV is no better than head-hopping, IMHO.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

It's done masterfully well in Captain Correlli's Mandolin, in and out of thoughts so smoothly it didn't interfere at all with the narrative.

 

[Ursa major]

Some of us are more sensitive about it. It goes against our sense of logic. Well, it does mine: I want to know why Character X can tell me what Character Y is thinking, but then not necessarily act on the information or remember it. And that's the main point: in wondering what's going on**, I've been pulled out of the story.


But even if it works for you, it's still head-hopping, if only because the narration is hopping between heads.



** - Either in the story, or what the writer was thinking when they decided to head-hop (or let the head hopping stand).

 

[Erin99]

I'm just nipping on uuuuuber quick.

Some of us are more sensitive about it. It goes against our sense of logic.

You have to remember, though, that we are there to create something fun, engaging, awe-inspiring, thoughtful, wondrous, etc., and invent somewhere readers want to escape to - and we should use whatever works best to make that happen, even if it means bending or breaking a few rules (you have to know the rules to successfully do that, though, yes, which is where the logic and learning comes in). But you have to watch out for logic, because you can end up losing the magic by being overly clinical.

Now I'm off to write a bit, yaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

Oh, and yes, I would put a line break between new POVs, along with a hash for the publishers. Works well for new huge sections of POVs.

 

[tinkerdan]

I don't write for sensitive people (well I do but that's a different part of sensitivity.)

Head hoping shows up a lot-LOT-in romance novels so you are saying that there are must be a lot of annoyed romance novel readers I take it.

Anyway somehow the myth that its unacceptable has permeated through a number of genre. I think it works quite well when-handled-properly in a scene where there are only two people.

Otherwise I do cut my scenes with a visible break before hoping around. I've written one where a POV takes me into a room then a character in the room takes us through that scene until they meet with a third who takes over from there, but these are all done with visible scene cuts.

And yes no doubt it is head hopping wouldn't call it anything else and even if you cut scenes but remain in the same place you actually head hop- it doesn't matter how many of those water barrels you put in the way all writers head hop at some point or another and many use a separator such as a space or some other marker.

So it becomes a style issue if someone forgets the space and just goes to the next paragraph.

But to escape this you could restrict every scene to one POV always and then the head hoping only takes place over longer distance to the next scene.

 

[Freya Robertson]

I tend to write one POV per chapter, but I think you can swap mid chapter as long as you leave a line break. I don't like head hopping either, although Nora Roberts does it all the time and nobody seems to mind

I try to ask myself mainly why I'm swapping. What will writing in another character's POV bring to the story? If I'm moving to another place or scene, I'll swap then. If I'm staying in the same scene, I'll usually stay in the same POV.

 

[barrett1987]

Example-
The main character ended an earlier chapter knocked out while doing something illegal.

Later on a chapter begins fromthe pov of a jailor. He's a nasty piece of work and goes out his business, tormenting his prisoners. Later on we return to the pov of the jailor as he is feeding. The prisoner breaks out. The pov happens as the prisoner kills him. after that i switch to the prisoner who hey presto was the main character. the scene then continues for a little bit of time and ends there.

The switch isn't meant to be a twist, more just a nice way of writing the scene.

That's the pov switch i have in mind when i ask this question

 

[Westie]

Swapping POV can be an extremely useful tool for setting up cliffhangers. If you change POV chapter by chapter, or even every 2 chapters then you can set up a cliff-hanger at the end of the chapter so they have to wait one or two or more chapters before getting to the resolution.

With a POV switch, if you can keep to a set pattern (1 person every 2 chapters for example) then the readers will instinctively know who they are supposed to be following currently. Alternatively, the location will be a give away, or if you are telling one part in flashback or in a separate time period. I read a book 20-odd years ago where the same enemy had to be defeated in medieval england, present-day Europe and futuristic Imperial Earth, so the technology level was a give away.

Of course, you could always start with "Bob Smith stepped out of the shower..." to let the reader know who they are reading about, but I don't like diving in to a chapter or a paragraph with names.

 

[Ursa major]

Head hoping shows up a lot-LOT-in romance novels so you are saying that there are must be a lot of annoyed romance novel readers I take it.

Thanks. I needed a good reason not to read romance.

Anyway somehow the myth that its unacceptable has permeated through a number of genre. I think it works quite well when-handled-properly in a scene where there are only two people.

Anything can work if handled well. But when one starts, it's difficult to handle it properly if one does not fully understand the "rules" (or helpful guidelines, or current conventions) from which one trying to deviate.

Otherwise I do cut my scenes with a visible break before hoping around. I've written one where a POV takes me into a room then a character in the room takes us through that scene until they meet with a third who takes over from there, but these are all done with visible scene cuts.

And yes no doubt it is head hopping wouldn't call it anything else and even if you cut scenes but remain in the same place you actually head hop- it doesn't matter how many of those water barrels you put in the way all writers head hop at some point or another and many use a separator such as a space or some other marker.

So it becomes a style issue if someone forgets the space and just goes to the next paragraph.

But to escape this you could restrict every scene to one POV always and then the head hoping only takes place over longer distance to the next scene.

I'm confused. You don't seem to be head-hopping at all. The blank line (or line with a #) changes the scene and lets the reader know that there may be a PoV change (unless reader has been primed to expect only one PoV per chapter, as in, say, A Song of Ice and Fire).

It appears, though, that we may be using two definitions for a scene:

• a sub-chapter;
• a section of narrative from one point of view.

Unless one is continually hopping from head to head, I don't see the problem of dividing a "sub-chapter" type of scene into a number of single-PoV-type scenes.


When writing close third person narrative from a number of PoVs, switching scene (though not necessarily sub-chapter) when the PoV character changes helps the reader (and the writer) to slip into the new PoV. After all, the PoV is not just 'who can see who' (and 'who can't see who', etc.), it's also about the PoV's understanding and knowledge (even if that turns out to be incorrect) and written from that character's perspective. Think of someone reading this thread as fiction. Each post/"scene" not only describes what's going on, it carries a whole lot of baggage (the poster's/"character's") and the reader should at least be given the chance to be aware of that change.

 

[tinkerdan]

Interesting.

I'm confused. You don't seem to be head-hopping at all. The blank line (or line with a #) changes the scene and lets the reader know that there may be a PoV change (unless reader has been primed to expect only one PoV per chapter, as in, say, A Song of Ice and Fire).

I agree and there in lay the problem. Having a narrow view of head hopping will only lead to a narrow view of handling it when it becomes a possibility in your writing.

So If mid scene I put one space/divider/break and switch POV and stay with that to the end you seem alright. But if somehow the space gets lost suddenly its all wrong.(I had this happen when the publisher created the ebook and it was rather annoying but I've yet to be hauled out on the rug to be persecuted for it.)

Now if it was hoping back and forth then maybe we could object. But there are still some scenes when things are really close with two people (does not have to be romance) when it is easy to make that switch once over once back and almost have it go unnoticed. If you do it just right. But in the long run if I put some break or divider between the switches then it becomes more evident and actually draws the readers attention to it before it's happened.

It really becomes a style issue of; do I want to take a risk of jarring them with the POV change or do I want to seriously jar them in and out twice with the obvious break.

The thing is if you have no chapters in your book then you would quickly see all the head hopping you do. If you have no dividers or breaks then it becomes more evident that serious head hopping is going on. So it all boils down to formating and styling not so much rules except perhaps a rule of etiquette in not wanting to piss off the readers.

In the same token it might do them a favor to on occasion forget etiquette for a rather tense scene that doesn't need a full stop in the middle for someones sensitivity.

 

[AMB]

I tend to write one POV per chapter, but I think you can swap mid chapter as long as you leave a line break. I don't like head hopping either, although Nora Roberts does it all the time and nobody seems to mind

I have seen romance writers swoon over how masterfully she manages it. Makes me wonder if headhopping is one of the rules of the genre.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I struggled to find a section short enough to use without a block of text (darn, I'll have to read the book again, now )



That night, just as she was drifting off to sleep, she heard a muffled cry, and the captain appeared in the kitchen, a towel wrapped around his waist. She sat up, clutching the blankets around her breasts.

'Forgive me,' he said, perceiving her alarm, ' but there appears to be an enormous weasel in my bed.'

It then follows Pelagia's thoughts and Corelli's in the room where he tries to befriend the pine marten with no scene break.

That, to me, isn't obtrusive. It's just exceptionally well written.

@AMB, it's less to do with the expectation around the romance genew and more to do with sff being unusually wedded to the strict single pov per scene rule - most other genres aren't so rigid.

To the OP - for what you're trying to do, I think the # between povs would work well.