Point of View switches.

[Ursa major]

First may I ought to make clear that I'm talking about close 3rd person PoVs, not any other type of third person narrative. If someone wants to write a story/novel which isn't close 3rd person PoV, then they can head-hop as much as they like without necessarily breaking any conventions.

So If mid scene I put one space/divider/break and switch POV and stay with that to the end you seem alright. But if somehow the space gets lost suddenly its all wrong.(I had this happen when the publisher created the ebook and it was rather annoying but I've yet to be hauled out on the rug to be persecuted for it.)

If all one does is to add the blank line (between the PoV of Character A and the PoV of Character B), you'd have a point. But what comes after the blank line would be different from what would be there if there was no blank line. The blank line is merely there to signal to the reader that they may ("may", because the scene break may be between two scenes from Character A's point of view) need to read what comes next in the context that the PoV has changed to that of Character B (what they can see hear, smell, taste, remember, plus all the prejudices and knowledge they have their heads). Adding the blank line is by far the easiest bit of the process. The next easiest is identifying the PoV characater. The rest is harder.

Now if it was hoping back and forth then maybe we could object. But there are still some scenes when things are really close with two people (does not have to be romance) when it is easy to make that switch once over once back and almost have it go unnoticed. If you do it just right. But in the long run if I put some break or divider between the switches then it becomes more evident and actually draws the readers attention to it before it's happened.

But if the switch is meant to go unnoticed, why do it? What would be the point? Surely it can't be simply there to slip something into character A's PoV about which Character A is totally unaware.

It really becomes a style issue of; do I want to take a risk of jarring them with the POV change or do I want to seriously jar them in and out twice with the obvious break.

The thing is if you have no chapters in your book then you would quickly see all the head hopping you do. If you have no dividers or breaks then it becomes more evident that serious head hopping is going on. So it all boils down to formating and styling not so much rules except perhaps a rule of etiquette in not wanting to piss off the readers.

I'm not sure where you're going with this, but it isn't really about formatting, is it? The frequency of head-hopping has nothing to do with whether there are scene and chapter breaks or not. Head-hopping is dragging the reader back and forth between heads as the writer sees fit, which rather undermines the idea of close 3rd person PoV (which is to put the reader in the head of the PoV character precisely so that they experience the scene with that character). If the PoV changes from paragraph to paragraph (or sentence to sentence) how strong a bond is the reader going to make with the supposed PoV character? Who really is the PoV character in this sort of narrative?

In the same token it might do them a favor to on occasion forget etiquette for a rather tense scene that doesn't need a full stop in the middle for someones sensitivity.

It isn't about sensitivity in the general sense; it's that head-hopping can, if not handled expertly, undermine the "close" in close 3rd person, and some people obviously notice that more than others.

 

[tinkerdan]

I get it.

You are referring to close third as it relates to being almost the same as first person and yes I would never attempt to head hop from first person character a to first person character b unless it were that multiple personality character I had and she just keeps slipping into those other first persons. So yeah if I had her narrator sitting on her shoulder viewing everything it would stay right there . Absolutely.

Sorry I misunderstood you I thought we were talking just general about head hopping and how evil it is or isn't or might be but not always because well....

I'm pretty sure I'd do new chapters for all close thirds of a different kind. Absolute screeching to a stop before we switch drivers.

As to the not being aware part it is not that they are not aware they are in a new POV it's that they are there they know it and it fits and it's perfect and they don't notice that the scene break marker tombstone dead body blocking door doorstop thing is missing. It just happens and everyone is happy.

 

[Kissmequick]

I have seen romance writers swoon over how masterfully she manages it. Makes me wonder if headhopping is one of the rules of the genre.

Lawks no -- most of us can't get away with what La Nora does. Two reasons

1 -- She does it very well. It's never confusing. She usually makes a point of sliding away from one person's POV before launching into another,and being very clear about it when it happens (Pratchett is also a master at this, although he'll often use breaks as well)

2 - She sells a butt load of books.

But editors vastly prefer it if you can be clear about POV switches with breaks etc because that's the current wassname and it's less easy to **** up. The genre convention is such, it's just that Nora has been about a long time (before this became the current convention) and she does it well

POV switches can be done without breaks (esp. in omni, where technically the only POV is that of the narrator, it's just they may delve in other heads) however because it's so easy to do badly, people are often advised against it.

It's one of the "rules" that is, in fact, a guideline pointing out something that needs extra care. Thing is, if you show everyone's POV it can be a bit lazy too -- do we really need to see in everyone's head for this scene? Or you can you show it from the POV of one character? What is seeing inside another person's head actually adding to this scene?

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

My thought is that there has to be a clear demarkation between whose head one is in at anyone time. I've seen this done badly in some works - I won't mention names but there was one book in which moment I was reading about being a patient in a hospital bed staring at the roof and in the next I was a man in a control booth staring at a camera image of the first man and wondering how that could be.

My thought is seperate chapters for separate POV's. And on those rare occasions when that doesn't fit I'd separate with a blank line and a few asterisks.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Erin99]

For a good recent example of head-hopping in the fantasy genre, of the non-omniscient variety, read The Chathrand Voyage Quartet, by Robert V.S. Redick, which, although has a very slow start and at first doesn't seem head-hoppy IIRC, is a brilliant tale very well executed. However, at the end of the series, when you finally find out who the narrator is, you see that it really was just head-hopping because there's no way the narrator could have known all that he did.

But you know what? It works really well, which is why it was signed up by a good agent and publisher and published when so many head-hopping manuscripts are rejected for being clumsy and jarring.

As for the OP's recent post, I agree with springs. For what you're planning, there's no reason not to use the line breaks and hash. TBH, it sound similar to the start of my novel, where I have a POV character going about his business, then he discovers someone lying in the snow shortly before he - for want of a better word - dies. There is then a scene break before the story is picked up by the POV character who was lying in the snow.

 

[Colbey Frost]

You mentioned David Gemmell in one of your other threads, so his head-hopping might confuse you as to the rules. He 'tries' to stay in one POV whilst he's there, but moves to different POV's in the same fashion someone might walk to a table. Sometimes it's not as smooth as that, but it seems to flow. It only annoys me now that I know you shouldn't do it, but I still love reading his books.

This is going to be another style issue. You might want to think about POV's and what you want from them. If you want to visit lots of different POV's over a short space of time, is that better than staying in one POV and keeping the reader out of the loop? Which is going to help your story more?

I personally like to have whole chapters in one POV. If I want the reader to know something, or see the MC from a different angle, maybe get a sense of how his actions are shaping the world around him, I would start a small chapter, sometimes less than a page, just for a new POV. I don't break flow, or do it mid scene. It has to fit. It has to serve a purpose.

From the style you're aiming at (guessing from your work in the crit section) I think you want close third, where it's almost as if you're writing in first person. Everything is from the eyes of the character. If someone is putting their fingers up behind his back, you wouldn't put this because he can't see it. Just like you can't tell the reader how another character is feeling, that has to come over in their actions and interaction with your POV at the time.

EDIT: As for adverbs, passive writing etc, etc, you need to watch out for patterns. If you use a tool like... (ellipsis) it can... stad out... you know? "Or, if you were to br-" Christian coughed. "Break dialogue up like th-," Christian coughed again. "Like th-" etc.

Patterns, unless it's a working stylistic choice, it's going to pull people out of your tale and into editing mode. I can only imagine how many things agents get annoyed by. Imagine loving blocks of pink, only to have specs of red all over it?

So, use what you want, how you want, even when you want but make sure it's deliberate and has purpose.

 

[TitaniumTi]

You might want to think about POV's and what you want from them. If you want to visit lots of different POV's over a short space of time, is that better than staying in one POV and keeping the reader out of the loop? Which is going to help your story more?

I agree. As a reader, I don't care how many "rules" the writer breaks, if it enhances an interesting story.

If head-hopping told me that the first protagonist believed A, the second protagonist believed B and the third protagonist wouldn't give a whisper of breath on whether A or B was right, but just wanted to be on the winning side, the resultant character development would enhance my interest in the story, if the story (and head-hopping) was well-written.

I've seen that sort of POV switch work very well, but I imagine that it takes a great deal of skill.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Head hoping shows up a lot-LOT-in romance novels so you are saying that there are must be a lot of annoyed romance novel readers I take it.

I doubt many of them even notice, since they're accustomed to it.

Which is true of most of the "rules" of good writing. It depends on what you are accustomed to. Also, what you're willing to put up with if you like the story and the characters enough.

 

[tinkerdan]

I just got finished reading a novel where two characters were swapping the POV back and forth all the way through and it worked because they were really close best friends and all and the changes were always clear.

There was one instance when they changed in the same paragraph and it too was very clear but I did feel just a bit restless with that one.

This book had no scene changes other than the chapters.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

I'm terrible for over-using ellipsis.

Must stop...

 

[Darth Angelus]

Good topic!

I usually go by one PoV per scene. Or, to be more accurate, one per segment. I might shift PoV within the same scene and/or same chapter, but it is always with a clear marker for the reader that the perspective has been shifted.

Shifting perspective without a clear marker for the reader could work, I suppose, but I do believe it would take an exceptionally experienced writer to pull off without creating confusion.