The comma splice

[Toby Frost]

To agree with what has been said already: I think they are a special effect, and should be used as such. If they are used wrongly, which is most of the time, they look amateurish. I doubt an agent will throw a novel in the bin for having one comma splice, but they do make you look less skilled as a writer.

 

[Boneman]

And yet... stylistically, they can work to very dramatic effect as Joe Abercrombie does, in 'HEROES'

And then she would catch something at the edge of her sight, and she was there, as it had been, on her back with a knee crushing her in the stomach and a dirty hand around her neck, could not breathe, all the sick horror that she somehow had not felt at the time washing over her in a rotting tide, and she would rip back the blankets and spring up, and pace round and round the room, chewing her lip, picking at the scabby bald patch on the side of her head, muttering to herself like a madwoman, doing the voices, doing all the voices

 

[TheDustyZebra]

But, see, all of that has the same subject -- she is doing all of it. It doesn't have a piece where the subject is the room or the blankets.

It may (probably is) technically a comma splice, but if all the pieces have the same subject, it may be one you can get away with. It's when the pieces have a different subject that you absolutely have to use something other than a comma.

Abercrombie's, above, is what was called a run-on sentence in my day.

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

The example you give does work to dramatic effect, Boneman. But it wouldn't work that way amidst pages and pages of the same sort of thing. Then it would just be another rambling, barely coherent sentence.

By itself, we can see that the woman's thoughts (not the writer's) are barely coherent, because the memories rush in, and she's in a panic.

 

[Ursa major]

As far as I can tell, that Abercrombie sentence is not a comma splice. She, explicitly or implicitly, is always the subject.

Okay, there's one bit where she isn't the subject -

all the sick horror that she somehow had not felt at the time washing over her in a rotting tide,

- as the subject is the bit I've put in bold, but the verb here - washing over - is not a main verb and so the quote isn't something that would stand on it's own. In fact, one doesn't have to know much grammar to see that it isn't a complete sentence in itself.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Yes, I actually mentioned that in my post above, and then deleted it before posting. That's the only dicey part of the whole bit, but it's got an implied "with", at least to my mind, that makes it a clause of some sort (don't ask me what kind, it's been far too long)(see what I did there ) rather than a separate sentence.

 

[Glisterspeck]

As far as I can tell, that Abercrombie sentence is not a comma splice. She, explicitly or implicitly, is always the subject.

Okay, there's one bit where she isn't the subject - - as the subject is the bit I've put in bold, but the verb here - washing over - is not a main verb and so the quote isn't something that would stand on it's own. In fact, one doesn't have to know much grammar to see that it isn't a complete sentence in itself.

I agree. Even the part you've quoted is a participial phrase isn't it, acting as an adjective? So even it is not a comma splice. I think it's a well formed sentence that is absolutely loaded with participial phrases. Of course, they're all present participles, meaning that all this description has to be happening at the same time as the action in the modified clause, but that's a different matter.

There is one strange construction, the phrase "..., could not breathe, ..." As constructed, it would have an implied subject of she, but that would then form a comma splice. It's the only bit that sounds odd to me. I'd have probably went with "unable to breathe."

TDZ, I don't think it's a run on either. That would require two joined sentences with the conjunction but without the comma (sort of the reverse of a comma splice). That is, if a run on, by your reckoning, is the same as a fused sentence, which is how I was taught.

Anyway, here's a good use of a comma splice from Hemingway's short story, The Battler:

The man looked at Nick and smiled. In the firelight Nick saw that his face was misshapen. His nose was sunken, his eyes were slits, he had queer-shaped lips. Nick did not perceive all of this at once, he only saw the man's face was queerly formed and mutilated. It was like putty in color. Dead looking in the firelight.

Here the comma splice serves the rhythm of the description. Awesome. (Hemingway is known for nonstandard comma use, but you see way more run ons than comma splices.)

Here's a great long list of comma splices, many of them beautiful bits of writing, done by all sorts of authors:

Oh, the Splices You

 

[tinkerdan]

How does that quoted material end? I don't see punctuation at the end of your quote so I'm assuming something is missing and to be honest the thought that was begun at the beginning though it might be complete within itself leaves me a bit at loose ends with the rest dangling there. I have not read Joe Abercrombie and don't feel compelled through that snippet to ever try.

And yet... stylistically, they can work to very dramatic effect as Joe Abercrombie does, in 'HEROES'

Sorry but that was probably not the best example to show someone who hasn't ever read his work.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

TDZ, I don't think it's a run on either. That would require two joined sentences with the conjunction but without the comma (sort of the reverse of a comma splice). That is, if a run on, by your reckoning, is the same as a fused sentence, which is how I was taught.

No, I remember the discussion somewhere around here a while back about run-on sentences, and I know that my definition is not the current consensus. The way I learned it, a long time ago when the world was young, that Abercrombie sentence would be a run-on -- one that just goes on and on and is jam-packed with clauses and whatnot. As I recall (and my memory has been known to be a little iffy), it can be technically correct and still be a sentence that someone would red-pen with a note to chop it into more manageable pieces. That isn't the definition that is currently in use, as I've seen -- I have a hard time wrapping my brain around the new one.

HOWEVER, it's entirely possible that my royal purpleness as a kid just confused the teachers and made them think I'd constructed something of questionable grammar; they could have then told me it was a run-on and I thought it was because of all the clauses and whatnot. If it turns out I'm totally wrong, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 

[Boneman]

How does that quoted material end? I don't see punctuation at the end of your quote so I'm assuming something is missing and to be honest the thought that was begun at the beginning though it might be complete within itself leaves me a bit at loose ends with the rest dangling there. I have not read Joe Abercrombie and don't feel compelled through that snippet to ever try.



Sorry but that was probably not the best example to show someone who hasn't ever read his work.

Sorry, full stop left off by me. Was just trying to show how comma splicing can be dramatic, even if technically it's wrong. It is a woman on the edge of panic, who's been through a very traumatic event, with survivor's guilt eating at her. And as Teresa says, too much of it wouldn't work, and fortunately Joe doesn't do that. I don't feel you can judge any book by one paragraph taken in isolation, and that wasn't my intention, just to show comma usage,,,

 

[Ursa major]

But as luck would have it, the sentence isn't technically wrong, in that it isn't a comma splice.


Just to add: Joe Abercrombie's books are well worth a look.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

, just to show comma usage,,,

My great-uncle used to write letters like that -- he would add a bunch of random punctuation at the end, and we were supposed to put it where it belonged, if we so desired.

 

[tinkerdan]

Okay that actually helped a little. I can now see two sentences.

And then she would catch something at the edge of her sight.

She was there doing the voices, doing all the voices.

And then she would catch something at the edge of her sight, and she was there, as it had been, on her back with a knee crushing her in the stomach and a dirty hand around her neck, could not breathe, all the sick horror that she somehow had not felt at the time washing over her in a rotting tide, and she would rip back the blankets and spring up, and pace round and round the room, chewing her lip, picking at the scabby bald patch on the side of her head, muttering to herself like a madwoman, doing the voices, doing all the voices.

 

[Glisterspeck]

Another example. This one hit me reading this on the way into work, but I had to look it up:

It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair...

 

[TheDustyZebra]

That one strains the supply of punctuation no matter which pieces you use in it! He nearly ran out of commas, I suspect, but would probably have been no better supplied with semicolons, either.

 

[Boneman]

Hah! You want classic punctuation mish-mash??? Cop a load of this sentence:

There was nothing so very particular, perhaps, about the appearance of the elderly man I saw; he was brown and brawny, like most old seamen, and heavily rolled up in a pilot-cloth, cut in the Quaker style; only there was a fine and almost microscopic network of the most minute wrinkles interlacing around his eyes, which must have arisen from his continual sailings in many hard gales, and always looking to windward;- for this causes the muscles about the eyes to become pursed together.

I feel Moby Dick...

 

[Hex]

Now I'm back from holiday (yey! holiday!) -- I can defend myself .

I rarely use proper comma splices, and when I do they get picked up by my writing group and I almost always remove them. The couple that survived to the version of INK my agent saw were edited out by her.

I do use what Harebrain called 'andless lists'; some people find them as ugly as splices, but they're not the same thing.

e.g. "I run at the wall, jump, grip tight with my fingers" (which is a dodgy example but illustrates what I mean -- those are not separate sentences, however much an "and" would help somewhere in there).

Most of the stuff I've seen on comma splicing suggests that very short sentences like "I came" etc. are acceptable separated with commas.

Quellist -- I agree. It's very easy to get paranoid about this rule. My suggestion, for what it's worth, is not to worry too much unless you get told you're doing it all the time.

 

[jastius]

be brave quellist ... pick your weapon of choice and strike boldly, getting all the coloured phrases down... then fix it in edit.
never overedit a story before the idea is on the page... that's putting a beartrap on your own leg.

(or you can decide to punt with your own version of grammar and drive your editors bonkers )

 

[Nick B]

Thank you all, my worries are laid somewhat to rest. Good advice Jastius thanks, i do have a habit of overworrying and re-reading to make it right before i've finished a section.

edit- sorry about the tiny text, when posting from my phone it has a life of its own :-S

 

[lonewolfwanderer]

This might help:

Rules for Comma Usage