Pantsing vs Planning?

[TheDustyZebra]

I think I'm a plantser: my whatif file grows and grows, I write ideas down as they occur to me, so end up with a jumble of scenes/ideas. As I'm doing that, I'm forming in my mind a roughish idea of where it's all going to go. Then I write and the pants take over. In my latest wip three of my ideas got dropped by the wayside, because the (?) creative side of me barrelled along and they became irrelevant.

I'm both: I like knowing where the story is going, but don't plot out all the points in between.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RcGrant
I seem to be stuck before I write.

This is a special type of pantsing: you're procrastinating, a form of lingerie....

I guess I'm a plantser, too, like Boneman and Ursa. I need to know where I'm going, but I don't make outlines or anything. I generally start writing and that's when I find out how it's going to get there. Things I had in mind for the middle sometimes get lost along the way because of something else that just happens. Of course, that's assuming I get around to starting, and get past the beginning(s). I definitely have some of Ursa's aforementioned lingerie.

Err ... wait ...

 

[A. Fare Wells]

I don't know many who do a lot of planning before writing. Typically, the folks I know, including myself, write and research at the same time. It's kind-of a pain after a couple of hours have passed and you only have several hundred words down because of researching on the internet, rereading and reorganizing what you've already written. But the finished product can be truly thrilling.

All I need is the general idea of the story. Sometimes it writes itself, but not most of the time. The more picky and critical of a reader you are can make the entire writing process take forever because it proves difficult to be satisfied with your production.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

When I started writing novels, almost 30 years ago now, I planned a lot: far too much, in fact. As time has gone on, and particularly recently, I've done outlines - sometimes the sketchiest of outlines - and pantsed it. I suspect most authors, as they gain experience, find that they have the experience to imagine more and plan less.

I recently had occasion to look for my notebook on Hairy London and was quite surprised to realise I hadn't done one (I thought I had). That's a first in 30 years for me...

 

[Dozmonic]

I don't understand the losing inspiration and interest because of planning. That'd only happen to me if I was in love with the idea of ideas, rather than the execution and exploration of them. Sketching out ahead of time a set of milestones lets me see that an arc, a plot or a subplot is complete and makes sense in the broadest of terms. Leaving room between those milestones to get there however I want allows for expressive and creative freedom. Planning more than that is, for me, planning too much. Planning less than that means I'm writing with no guidance and what I produce may be interesting, but will often have no purpose or direction.

Plot in generality, pants in detail.

 

[Jo Zebedee]

Ye, except that's the only planning i do. I work everything else out as i go along- the setting, characters, how everything ties together. I don't plan every detail of my WIP, just the important points of each plot thread and from there I just write and see where it goes, using the structuring as a direction, or goal.

So i suppose i should change my answer to 50-50.

EDIT: Mind you, i don't have problems with spoilers in stories, which i know pantsers don't like. I can be told the ending to a movie, or book, or series, and still watch it. Because for me its about the journey rather than the destination. Maybe that makes me a planner.

Um, says who? I'm a pantster and only got through GOT by reading the spoilers first...

 

[Mouse]

Um, says who?

Not something I've heard either, to be fair. I don't generally like spoilers, but when I've been really, really into something, I have sought out spoilers cos I want to know what happens in advance.

 

[Ursa major]

What's does "spoilers in stories" even mean? If it's in the story, it isn't a spoiler, simply because the author meant you to know at that point in the story; if it's not in the story, well it's not in the story.

And what has it to do with whether one uses a detailed plan for one's own story? I don't tie myself down too tightly simply because my characters can develop in such a way that they no longer would do what a detailed plan would require them to do. I believe I can still get them to the point I want, but may have to find a new route.



* Wonders if doing the sort of research Mouse has been asked to do counts as pantsing or not? *

 

[Mouse]

* Wonders if doing the sort of research Mouse has been asked to do counts as pantsing or not? *

Cheeky!

 

[lonewolfwanderer]

What's does "spoilers in stories" even mean? If it's in the story, it isn't a spoiler, simply because the author meant you to know at that point in the story; if it's not in the story, well it's not in the story.

And what has it to do with whether one uses a detailed plan for one's own story? I don't tie myself down too tightly simply because my characters can develop in such a way that they no longer would do what a detailed plan would require them to do. I believe I can still get them to the point I want, but may have to find a new route.



* Wonders if doing the sort of research Mouse has been asked to do counts as pantsing or not? *

Not something I've heard either, to be fair. I don't generally like spoilers, but when I've been really, really into something, I have sought out spoilers cos I want to know what happens in advance.

Um, says who? I'm a pantster and only got through GOT by reading the spoilers first...

By spoilers i mean like, your friend telling you the end to a story before you've read it yourself, or having your facebook page bombarded with pictures or memes of important parts in a movie/series, when you wanted to find it out for yourself. Some people mind, some people don't (and i'm getting the feeling that i'm contradicting myself...). And that's how i see the difference between a pantser and a planner. Pantser writes to find out what's happening, planner knows what's happening from the start. Of course, it is a very general view on it all, so by all means correct me if i'm wrong. That's just how i've grown to understand it.

And maybe i mis-worded the edit in my last post... Apologies

 

[Jo Zebedee]

I tend to know vaguely what's going to happen, just not the details and can't wait to write the darn thing to find out. When reading I have equal impatience and will happily spoil. I think if I thought I could have spoilers for my own stuff, I might do, but sadly still have to find out the long way...

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Cheeky!

If it's cheeky research, I think it counts as pantsing in the American sense of the word.

 

[Mouse]

If it's cheeky research, I think it counts as pantsing in the American sense of the word.

Surely UK pants are closer to the bottom?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

It depends. When I wrote the Green Lion books, being that I was accountable to no one, I didn't plan at all (unless thinking of scenes ahead and writing them out while the ideas were clear in my mind counts as planning ... although most of those scenes ended up not being included anyway) and I just let the story develop.

But when I was selling books to publishers before the books themselves were actually written, I'd provide a detailed outline, at least for the first book of a series ... knowing full well that I'd trash large parts of it whenever a better idea came in out of the blue. With Goblin Moon, the actual book ended up being very, very different than the one I had originally planned, and the sequel bore almost no resemblance to the half page description I had included with the proposal for GM.

It was the same with my second Celydonn trilogy. I know that the first book was extensively planned, but I am pretty sure the other two mostly just happened (though it's been a long time and my memory may be at fault). I do remember quite clearly that my ideas for the third book underwent a huge revolution somewhere along the way.

Now that I'm planning to write everything on spec, I'll have to see what happens.

 

[TheDustyZebra]

Surely UK pants are closer to the bottom?

Not after you get pantsed in the US.

 

[RcGrant]

Teresa, out of curiosity how did the publishers react when they received a completed book that was quite different from the outline? Or do they expect this as standard?

 

[Teresa Edgerton]

Frankly, I don't think they remembered the outline, they'd read and edited so many books in the interim.

Once you've sold a book or two, and they know you can deliver a plot and characters that they'll like, all they really need to know is that there is a book you could write from the outline you sent them. Then if you turn in a manuscript that they want to publish, one that still has whatever it was that they remember they found appealing in the first place, they are happy with that. If it's so different that they realize it's different, then there would be a problem.

But I've never had an editor say, "Wait, this is different! We can't publish this."

 

[RcGrant]

That's definitely encouraging. Thank you for taking the time to explain.

 

[Stephen Palmer]

But I've never had an editor say, "Wait, this is different! We can't publish this."

Not yet! It could easily happen...

 

[Cosmic Geoff]

Planning is always a good idea, I think.
Some writers claim not to plan in advance, but then they are, one supposes, figuring out a functional plan (Hero's Journey, or whatever), as they go.

If you have an early story you want to rework, the mere fact that you have the whole thing should be pointing the way to go. If the plot is bad, you could think about how to fix it. If the material is poorly handled, you can write new or heavily revised scenes with the benefit of your greater experience.

From my own experience, I would say that trying to rework old material can be hazardous. More years ago than I care to admit, I wrote a pair of short fantasy novels. The first one had a big jump of time and character experience two-thirds of the way through, which did not bother me much at the time. Later I spent years trying to bridge that gap, only to conclude that the most workable solution was something like a five-novel series.
In my current trilogy, as little as 13% of the material can be traced back to the first early novel. Two-thirds of the old material remains un-exploited.
You might well ask if I should not have just re-started with a blank sheet of paper.

To give you a personal narrative of seat of the pants writing, I tried roughing out an all-new novel that would link the current trilogy to the latter part of the old plot-line. I had a set of characters and part of a plan, and it went tolerably well till I got to the end of the worked-out plan. I improvised for a bit. And then it stuck.

 

[RcGrant]

Planning is always a good idea, I think.
Some writers claim not to plan in advance, but then they are, one supposes, figuring out a functional plan (Hero's Journey, or whatever), as they go.

If you have an early story you want to rework, the mere fact that you have the whole thing should be pointing the way to go. If the plot is bad, you could think about how to fix it. If the material is poorly handled, you can write new or heavily revised scenes with the benefit of your greater experience.

From my own experience, I would say that trying to rework old material can be hazardous. More years ago than I care to admit, I wrote a pair of short fantasy novels. The first one had a big jump of time and character experience two-thirds of the way through, which did not bother me much at the time. Later I spent years trying to bridge that gap, only to conclude that the most workable solution was something like a five-novel series.
In my current trilogy, as little as 13% of the material can be traced back to the first early novel. Two-thirds of the old material remains un-exploited.
You might well ask if I should not have just re-started with a blank sheet of paper.

To give you a personal narrative of seat of the pants writing, I tried roughing out an all-new novel that would link the current trilogy to the latter part of the old plot-line. I had a set of characters and part of a plan, and it went tolerably well till I got to the end of the worked-out plan. I improvised for a bit. And then it stuck.

Thank you, this was incredibly helpful. A small part of me does wonder if this story is forever doomed to be my "practice" and will therefore never be completed. However, I am so stubborn and I do think it is a story worthy of being told so I am reluctant to let it go. Part of the problem is that when I try and do something about it, the rest of my work becomes infected and I grind to a halt.

I'm starting a new novel (by hand this time) in a notebook tonight. It's been an idea brewing for a while and I'm just going to relax and write. I've had success in the past with writing the first draft longhand and then typing up each chapter as I finish it, making some edits at the same time. I'm hoping maybe the past success will rub off. I am also going to work on the next draft of the "possibly doomed" trilogy alongside. Hopefully by doing it this way I will at least have something productive to show for my efforts (as opposed to spending all of my time worrying about it).